|
|
Post by chucklynch on Aug 7, 2009 6:30:37 GMT -5
Not to run off topic with this, but I have to laugh. A lot of veterans I have talked to said they knew little to anything about the extreme details and specifics of their gear/uniforms. Not until having conversations with reenactors/reliving historians did they know all the "little" things. This isn't the case with all veterans or current military personnel, but keep in mind that a certain percentage of our servicemen and women were just doing what had to be done, and may have to even had time to think how many hobnails were in their boots or stitches in their undershorts.
|
|
aicusv
S/Sgt. 
Uniform of the Day
Posts: 392
|
Post by aicusv on Aug 7, 2009 8:13:01 GMT -5
At the same token. I've run into vets who have commented on the shade of color on my boots. I remember talking with one German vet who had been at the siege of Leningrad and knew exactly how many hobnails he had in his boots. Every morning they had to stand inspection, well one day he was missing one nail and was put on punishment because of it. You maybe surprised what guys remember and don't remember. They may forget how to take the op-rod off the M-1, but never forget what eyes on the cartridge belt the haversack hooks to.
Anything worth doing is worth doing right. No matter the reason something that is wrong will always be wrong. If someone doesn't care enough to try and do something correctly, they should truly stop and re-evaluate what they are doing and why they are doing it. Their efforts maybe better placed in another effort.
The single most common - "I don't remember" response I have gotten from vets (GIs) was to the question about tying off their leggings.
|
|
|
|
Post by williegford on Aug 7, 2009 8:58:13 GMT -5
There's a connection between how your group approaches authenticity for new guys and a group's authenticity in general. Whether a GI back then knew if his helmet was front seam or rear seam is irrelevant. He didn't care. He wasn't trying to historically portray something, he was doing a job with the tools he was given. Whether the public knows the difference between an M1 and a Mosin Nagant is also irrelevant. You do know the difference.
What our group has always tried to stress is that you want to try and impress the people that do know what to look for because, like already stated, the ones who don't know won't care anyway.
As far as authenticity for new guys, every group should have some kind of uniform primer to give to new guys that want to join their group and the new guy should at least have the minimum uniform items to get started (e.g.Garrison cap, M41 jacket, OD's, service shoes and leggings in the case of our group). Then it's up to the older guys in the group to mentor and make sure the new guys acquire the needed items as they can. The key word is mentor. It's amazing how far leading by example can go.
It's not a matter of "lowering" standards for new guys. Every group has their own level of authenticity and it should be the same whether you're a new guy or old guy. If you allow a guy to wear a Vietnam era helmet w/clip on chin straps just because he's new, that make a statment about your group's authenticity standards as a whole.
Just my two cents.
Bill
|
|
|
|
Post by Boogiewoogie on Aug 7, 2009 9:34:36 GMT -5
Totally off track, but I thought you all would enjoy! I remember, how my freinds helmet got ran over by a track, in 1983. He had taken the cover off and the rim had come apart. It stuck down in front. We for the life of us, could not figure out why it was on backwards. A pack of idiots had installed it on wrong. We checked several other helmets and found his to be an oddity.  Martin |
|
|
|
Post by echo5levi on Aug 7, 2009 10:18:49 GMT -5
I remember talking with one German vet who had been at the siege of Leningrad and knew exactly how many hobnails he had in his boots. Every morning they had to stand inspection, well one day he was missing one nail and was put on punishment because of it. Pain retains! |
|
TomClegg
1st Lieutenant 
The impossible we do first, the difficult we save for later.
Posts: 1,513
|
Post by TomClegg on Aug 7, 2009 11:26:21 GMT -5
Gentlemen,
Cut the equipment needs to campaign or garrison level bare minimum, but keep the authenticity at museum level. Keep cost low but participation high. Don't permit the entitlement, consumeristic mind set to dominate the impression. Insist on authenticity. But don't insist on anyone having to buy everything in order to participate. Bare minimum appearance and uniform that's it.
You can yell and scream all you want, which usually happens when any standard is enforced but, simply put, lowering standards never improves anything or helps anyone. This goes for units, participants and the public.
I understand the need and argument for new members, but consider first what draws them to this hobby in the first place??? Compromise or correct impressions???
Maintain loaner boxes of used but authentic gear. It is the price of unit growth.
See you in the assembly area!
Tom
|
|
|
|
Post by tentha86 on Aug 7, 2009 13:55:56 GMT -5
Tom - well said.
I guess I should elaborate & say that I can accept an appearance of authenticity, and can live with a 1965 dated canteen, but will urge and shape the new member to get a 1942 dated canteen when he can. I will accept a 1946 date on wool trousers as long as they appear correct. I can accept a post-war helmet, as long as it doesn't have gloss paint and clip-on straps.
I cannot accept 1950's web gear that doesn't look WWII. I don't want to see repro WWI leggings. I reject a M8 bayonet. Para trousers with leggings and a M1951 field jacket? I don't think so!
I will tolerate French boots from a newbie, but would ask that he get the right thing in the next year or so. I will tolerate a brass belt buckle (full face) for the day, but will help find an opened face buckle before the next event. I will allow your plastic-stocked 03 rifle in the rifle stack, but we'll find you a wood stock for the next event, and we won't use your rifle for a demo piece. When people are close to meeting the standard - I think we should work with them to get to the next level. Too far off and we have to call them on it. And always - ALWAYS - try to improve the impression. Raise the bar - do better next time!
The guys who have been doing this for 20 years have little excuse for wearing the wrong thing. They have time to learn what is right, and time to find the right thing. I'm hoping that my guys will eventually want to wear button fly boxers in a wonderful LOD color, but I won't check on them unless they are washing in the creek. I hope they want a nice fixed bale helmet, but if the straps are right and the color is right, I probably won't ever check. However IF THEY WANT TO KNOW, I'll have the proper trou to show them, and a nice fixed bale to look at, as well as samples of (hopefully) everything else they might ever ask about. Authenticity at museum levels is great - but even museums take time to get there. 30 years in this hobby and there are still pieces I am looking for to get it "perfect". I'm glad I didn't have to wait 30 years to go out & play...
|
|
fortworthgal
1st Lieutenant
Forum's Most Helpful Lady 2008
I'd like to thank the Academy...
Posts: 1,304
|
Post by fortworthgal on Aug 13, 2009 10:41:57 GMT -5
There's a connection between how your group approaches authenticity for new guys and a group's authenticity in general. Whether a GI back then knew if his helmet was front seam or rear seam is irrelevant. He didn't care. He wasn't trying to historically portray something, he was doing a job with the tools he was given. Whether the public knows the difference between an M1 and a Mosin Nagant is also irrelevant. You do know the difference. I agree with this. When someone is starting out, they will obviously not have the full authentic kit right out of the gate, and should not be expected to. This hobby is expensive. They may have bare minimums, or have some items that are "off but workable" (like say, a 1960s mess kit or some postwar pants), or they may be using loaner gear. That is all okay IMHO, so long as the person knows what they should be working toward and is going in the right direction. IMHO one's impression is a constant work in progress - even for experienced reenactors. I know I am constantly upgrading items in my collection. Relaxing the authenticity standards from "this is acceptable now until you can upgrade" to just plain "this is acceptable" is where problems originate and group authenticity takes a dump. I have seen this in action. |
|
|
|
Post by pfarber on Aug 16, 2009 22:16:35 GMT -5
I don't think I could agree with williegford more.
I would like to point out one thing. Many people have said that they want as correct an impression as they can get. OK, fine.
Others have said "If we want to get it right on that level, limit the age to 25 & under, less than 10% body fat and a high school education."
Um, the average age of a GI in WWII was 26. He may have had some primary education. I have no ida where the 10% body fat comes from... anyone have a weight chart from the 40's?
My point is that even when a group of in the know reenactors get together... they appear, to well, NOT KNOW.
A new guy should say 'YES' to helmet. Front or rear seam? Give the guy a year or X events. Ditto for canteen etc.
I have to agree with the 10ft rule for starters. If the unit cannot instill the pride and motivation for a new guy to get the right gear, then I would say the unit has issues. Who wants to blow $1200+ and hang around people who machine sew patches yet gripe about helmet seams?
You don't do LH for the group.. you do it for your own personal enjoyment. Having others to do it with is a bonus.
|
|
|
|
Post by mudgrunt on Aug 20, 2009 13:08:52 GMT -5
Hopefully any "squared away" group will have "squared away" loaner gear. Get the prospect off on the right foot without lowering the bar.
|
|
aicusv
S/Sgt.
Uniform of the Day
Posts: 392
|
Post by aicusv on Aug 21, 2009 9:51:24 GMT -5
I can accept a post-war helmet, as long as it doesn't have gloss paint and clip-on straps. Nearly everyone of my original Helmets have a shine to them. Paint from the 1940's was made different from modern. When I refinish a helmet I match it to one of my originals, including the shine (yes it is slight but it is there). Modern finishes are too flat. |
|
|
|
Post by tentha86 on Aug 21, 2009 10:06:01 GMT -5
Nearly everyone of my original Helmets have a shine to them.
Paint from the 1940's was made different from modern. When I refinish a helmet I match it to one of my originals, including the shine (yes it is slight but it is there). Modern finishes are too flat
Yep - right you are. I was making a poor reference to the repaints with 4 layers of high gloss OG paint from the parade ground and the post-war clip-on straps. A little shine indicates legit age... a waxed and gleaming surface indicates PPP ("Patton's Potty Patrol" as my uncle referred to the REMFs).
|
|
