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Post by bataan1 on Apr 11, 2016 10:05:24 GMT -5
Hi, I suppose no one has ever broached this question, but the question goes like this.
You're a hobbyist who loves WWII, you like the Germans, think the gear is great, have read up on almost everything about WWII, hate the Waffen SS, you also hate the National Socialist Party for what it stands for, and above all you hate Hitler.
Now you have time to take part in a hobby you love, and you're now thinking about joining a local German Panzer, Infantry, or whaterver German Military group there is in your local area. Now you also have some military training behind you, plus you're as eager, and willing to do a better job than most other enthusiasts. So, you decide to join Panzergroup 12345. You write, to them; they're really excited about you joining the group, and you make an appearance at their latest WWII appearance.
BUT, there is one thing very different... your color is not the same as theirs, in fact you may be an African American, or an Asian; plus you are a female (hate being a DRK) or even being an American WAC.
So what do you do? Do you just give up because the majority of the members are all white, and the German Army never had Blacks, Asians or even a..."female" who wants to be on of the folks in the group.
So with that in mind... Are all German reenactment groups only for people who are white only? If not, and since this is a hobby where the idea is to have fun, and also teach the public about the unit and its time in history, while not trying to expose a certain philosophy; how does one join if they don't fit the idea of the typical white European Soldier?
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HQ327
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 1,336
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Post by HQ327 on Apr 11, 2016 13:51:37 GMT -5
On Facebook there is a group called authentic farbs. It posts actual (REAL) pictures of soldiers of all armies and time frames doing things that are considered farby. Not long ago they had photos of Koreans is Heer uniforms captured at Normandy, and a black man in a German uniform. The fact that Koreans served in the Heer is well known.
Women -- whole different kennel of worms. I have seen women pull off a convincing and more authentic looking impression then some men, and then you see the ones who could care less about trying to blend in. Key is that they should blend in, not stand out. If unwilling to blend in then perhaps the auxiliary role is the rout to go.
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Post by shrikea8 on Apr 11, 2016 20:17:50 GMT -5
I'll second what was stated elsewhere that this sounds almost like trolling or research for an expose article of some sort,with that caveat, I'll try to give you my take on this question at face value.
WWII, in Europe at least, was fought predominately by white men. This is a historical fact, and really really hard to refute. On the German side you had a officially racist, patriarchal and arch conservative government and predominant culture that in it's own way revered motherhood family and femininity. On the American side you had an unofficially racist, officially segregated patriarchal government and culture that reluctantly accepted women in the workplace (and military auxiliaries) as a necessity. The British were very much Not Segregated*but had the patriarchal attitude tempered by the realities of being bombed quite often.**
From a historical perspective, and history is the important feature that keeps proper reenactment from being expensive cowboys and indians*** in the woods, then a person of colour, regardless of gender, would be almost wholly inappropriate in a German front line unit.
You mention teaching the public, which I concur is a valuable role. In a first person situation, it would be a disservice to that role to rely on so much handwaving to explain the player. A counter-example. Would it be in any way appropriate for a man of, say Swedish extraction, to put on blackface and a dress to educate the public on the life of a slave woman in the antebellum south?
That said, there are roles a woman of colour COULD portray within the the realm of historical fact. In your initial situation, knowledgeable about German equipment with a military background would lend itself wonderfully to a MI6/SIS/SOE intelligence boffin (boffinette?) See also Noor Inayat Khan.
Ultimately it would come down to motivation and the ability to integrate into the unit. In our unit we have a young woman of small stature and slim build that rather convincingly pulls off the role of the "lied about his age" young man al a Audie Murphy. She is also a respected historical researcher, which is no small feat in a unit that also boasts two professional historians. If the history is the motivation then respect for it would go hand in hand with choosing suitable roles. If the motivation is just to make a point, that's intrusive rather than inclusive.
* a point which occasionally caused friction with their American allies *** oddly enough an exception was made for the field of aviation by all three - see Hanna Reitsch, Jackie Cochran and Amy Johnson ** pick you own PC metaphor if you have to
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Post by doc101 on Apr 13, 2016 18:01:58 GMT -5
Sometimes, the real world isn't what you want it to be. There are plenty of unicorns and fairy reenactor groups to join. But try as you might, you can't change historical FACT, no matter what your agenda is.
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KG
T/3.
Posts: 292
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Post by KG on Apr 14, 2016 14:16:47 GMT -5
The Belgian sas and resistance would be a possibility for you, as Belgium had a close relationship with the Congo and have citizens from there.
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Post by jagdjager on Apr 14, 2016 22:39:22 GMT -5
I was in a Luftwaffe feld division unit where we had a female who portrayed a sani.... Her outfit was better than most of ours and if you didn't know her you would have thought she was a man in the field. At camp she dressed as an auxiliary. We had no issues and stood behind her at every event if someone had an issue with her. We pointed out the fact that there were no 50-60 year old 300-400lb paratroopers either. It's a hobby, look the best you can and put out maximum effort to support your unit. In the end it is all to have fun and honor those we represent (or in my case be a bullet sponge for the allies lol).
Just my opinion
I'll add that she only entered the field on tactical events for the majority, living history events she manned the camp and spit out propaganda.
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TarawaJon
2nd Lieutenant
Issue in doubt!
Posts: 990
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Post by TarawaJon on Apr 15, 2016 9:48:36 GMT -5
I was in a Luftwaffe feld division unit where we had a female who portrayed a sani.... Her outfit was better than most of ours and if you didn't know her you would have thought she was a man in the field. At camp she dressed as an auxiliary. We had no issues and stood behind her at every event if someone had an issue with her. We pointed out the fact that there were no 50-60 year old 300-400lb paratroopers either. It's a hobby, look the best you can and put out maximum effort to support your unit. In the end it is all to have fun and honor those we represent (or in my case be a bullet sponge for the allies lol). Just my opinion I'll add that she only entered the field on tactical events for the majority, living history events she manned the camp and spit out propaganda. There is so much to comment on here.
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Post by bataan1 on Apr 17, 2016 16:31:52 GMT -5
Thanks; not that I'm trying to change history, but you do have a few women who would like to portray a German soldier for what reason, but because they'r female, they don't come out. One, its because the wars were between men, not women. Women were still not allowed to join the military in some countries, until later on. The WACS of the US, were only allowed to go overseas much later, but in an auxiillary capacity. Yes I know that women aren't in wars.
But, I feel that; if a woman can do a better job than her male hobbyist, and conforms to the units policy, then I can't see why she can't join and be one of the guys for that one war.... That's all I want to say...
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dbloge
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 1,130
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Post by dbloge on Apr 17, 2016 18:09:28 GMT -5
It looks like there may be a few different threads going on here concerning the same topic. I may be rehashing some comments, but here goes...
No one has some type of automatic "right" to portray any impression they choose to at events, join an organization, or attend an event. Units, parent organizations, and events themselves create their own specific rules concerning this.
Lifes not fair.
DL
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Post by doc101 on Apr 17, 2016 21:21:52 GMT -5
What part of HISTORICAL reenacting did you not understand?
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FJR1
Corporal
Fallschirmj?ger Vor!
Posts: 149
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Post by FJR1 on Apr 28, 2016 3:03:11 GMT -5
Agreed!!! This is a "Historically Correct" hobby - NOT a "politicly correct" one! Sarge
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Mayo
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 1,252
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Post by Mayo on Apr 28, 2016 18:43:18 GMT -5
Agreed. If you are a female and insist on a combat role, join the Russian Army. That is an accurate combat impression.
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Post by Brody on May 4, 2016 4:58:33 GMT -5
Ultimately, what matters most is the standards of the unit you want to join. If you find a German unit that is willing to accept a black woman in a combat role, good for you! If it's not historically accurate, do your best to conceal the inaccurate distractions. You may want to consider wrapping your chest to appear less feminine, and find some way to manage your hair so you aren't displaying long locks in uniform. If I was commanding the unit, I'd probably give most people a pass for crossing historical gender/race roles provided they strive for authenticity in all things that ARE within their control. The 101st ABN He-Man Woman Hater's Division (Whites only) recreated will probably not overlook such historical inaccuracies, however. In general, you'd probably get more acceptance among reenactors by choosing a role historically befitting your race and gender. Whatever you do, do it well (and don't forget to include a shaving kit in your personal gear).
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Bartolo
2nd Lieutenant
29th Infantry Division
Posts: 872
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Post by Bartolo on May 4, 2016 18:24:18 GMT -5
I smell troll.
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Post by Brody on May 4, 2016 20:29:32 GMT -5
Interesting, I think that's the first time I've been accused of trolling. Let me ask you one thing though - was my first statement correct? Is it the unit's standards that matter most regarding whether or not this is something she'll be able to do, and if not the collective opinion of the unit, whose approval should she look for (if anyone)?
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Post by doc101 on May 4, 2016 22:00:35 GMT -5
She can play air soft, Fantasy, etc.
What is so hard to comprehend about portrayal of HISTORICAL events?
The troll comment about you was probably due to you signing up and your first posts are defending someone who is striving to push political correctness and revisionist theorys....
Hence you are probably one and the same.
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Post by Brody on May 5, 2016 0:53:39 GMT -5
If you're telling me that as a first post on the forum, expressing an opinion in contrast to the majority of reenactors was probably not the best way to introduce myself, I'd agree. On the other hand, to welcome me to the forum by saying "This guy isn't exactly like the rest of us - let's call him names!" is less than hospitable. If either of you had even bothered to click on my profile, you'd have seen that I registered a year and a half ago. Trolls don't register and lurk around the forum, reading what others have to say for a year and a half before posting.
I'll start over. Hi. I'm Mark. I joined this hobby about two years ago and I portray a glider pilot in the 72d TCS, 434 TCG. When "Saving Private Ryan" came out, it sparked an interest in WWII in me that has not died since. As such, I'd been interested in this hobby for about 15 years before I actually joined. I'm fairly well established at this point. I have uniforms and gear for accurate depictions of a glider pilot for pretty much every battle in the ETO. I've done about a half dozen events in my time. I'd love to do it more often, but there are few opportunities in my area (Civil War reenactment is much more popular in the south). Real world deployments have also kept me from participating sometimes. I missed Peachtree City last weekend because I'm in the Middle East right now. Someday, I'd like to make it out to one of the massive events like Conneaut or the Gap. I'm always on the lookout to learn more about the hobby, but interested in learning about the actual history even more. Although the glider troops and glider pilots don't often get a whole lot of attention (aside from Maj John Howard's assault on Pegasus Bridge, gliders barely make cameo appearances in film and television), I've found a substantial amount of info about the glider pilots. I just finished reading Gerard Devlin's "Silent Wings." A documentary was made based on his book, but the book is so dense, the film only covered a small fraction of the information in its short 114 min runtime.
That ought to bring you up to speed. I'm strictly opposed to revisionist history, and I don't care much for political correctness (I've got no problem talking about "Germans" at events for the purpose of portraying the banter that was common among soldiers). At the end of the day, though, I consider it far less farby for a black man or a woman to portray a soldier in a unit that was historically white than see a white man wearing one of At The Front's size 52L M42 paratrooper jackets struggling to even jog 100 ft across a field, or a 62 year old white man with buck sgt stripes. On the subject of colorblind casting, at one of the events I went to, there was a Japanese unit of about 8 guys. They did a fantastic job marching the same goofy march the Imperial Army did, shouting all their commands in Japanese, and their uniforms looked great, but every single one of them was white. Although their ethnicity contrasted with their historical impression, they took the impression to heart so well that nobody complained. Nobody said "If you guys are interested in the PTO, you ought to represent a USMC unit because none of you are even Asian, much less Japanese."
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Bartolo
2nd Lieutenant
29th Infantry Division
Posts: 872
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Post by Bartolo on May 5, 2016 1:22:43 GMT -5
I will assist you with this perplexing situation that you have found yourself in. Her unit leaders/members have no say in this matter unfortunately. None of us do. The only authority we look to for guidance is historical photos, veteran accounts and historical references. As historical reenactors we follow the guidelines laid forth by HISTORY, not our own dream-situations. If I was a Black female who wanted to portray a member of the Waffen SS, I may need to do some soul searching. Historically Women: Black/White/Hispanic/Asian were not on the frontline during WWII (at least not voluntarily), even in Russia it was only a small amount in comparison to the male population. But especially for the Deutsche Wehrmacht (That's the GERMAN Armed forces). I know it's stinks, no women were able to fight in an aggressively patriarchal socialist society...I'm sure women back then were just dying to hit the front-lines. (No, No they were not). Even though today women have made many great strides (yet still have much more to go unfortunately), that doesn't mean we can make substitutes to accommodate peoples fantasies when portraying this era. In layman terms: Just because women can do stuff today, doesn't mean that they did or would have back then. When public attends events we should try to tell the story of this generation as close to the truth as we possibly can. Not make substitutes to appease political correctness. (Again, excusing Partisan/resistance fighters and some women in the defense of major cities such as the siege of Berlin in 1945). So why would you "tape your breasts" and stuff your pants? Why not portray a woman during the war? Their efforts were just as valiant as soldiers on the front lines.
Throughout history, men would provide, while women maintained the house/family. It is an archaic and misogynistic way to view it but history was not always so understanding. When husbands went off to war and died, wives had no income, no skills and had to raise children alone. Her options were to find a low-paying job or re-marry.
When WWII came about, women HAD to enter the workplace and take up the jobs their husbands were forced to leave behind. They gained skills, earned for the family, while raising kids, while cooking dinner etc. My grandmother was one of those people who grew up during the war. She taught me to hunt, how to fish, gave me advice on how to treat women (with respect), how to sew, how to cook. SHE did this. A woman. Why are women like her forgotten in history? Don't they deserve to be portrayed? These strong women should be portrayed too, not forgotten. Without them scrap drives, food rationing, morale, families and much more would have been lost. Their memories shouldn't be insulted because girls today want to be boys. By wanting to play a man you are admitting that women did NOTHING for the war. That would be a bold face lie.
See, I lack the breasts (debatable) and strength to portray such women, so whats wrong with an actual woman portraying a woman? They were some of the first true feminists. They actually took action to support this country while men were fighting overseas. They pulled their own weight and more!
As much as it pains you, an overweight, 65 year old white male with a mustache is still more accurate in a German Uniform than a Chinese/Japanese/Black/White Female in perfect shape. It sucks I know. But that's history. Weight can be lost, mustache' can be shaved and there are plenty of age appropriate impressions in the Axis side. Unfortunately playing the race/sex card is not going to get you far in this hobby.
Unfortunately WWII Reenacting isn't a social experiment. We do our best to portray the MEN and WOMEN who lived through this tumultuous time-period in human history as accurately as WE physically can. If I look like a German but I have a beer belly, I will portray a German. But I will try to lose the gut and learn to speak German. If I look like a strong American woman, God Damn I'll be the one with the rivet gun yelling, "We Can Do It!". If I look like a U-Boat, up Periscope! Why? Because I will do a better job than anyone else can, especially if I use my own genetics to help my impression.
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Post by doc101 on May 5, 2016 14:06:05 GMT -5
I don't know why we even bother... The new generation is bound and determined to make history fit their personal wants...
Do whatever floats your boat. Don't forget the all homosexual battalions, the quad and crutch Armies, not to mention the blind Corps that were out there, on the front lines.
No wonder the world is so screwed up.
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ww2imp
1st Lieutenant
Vendor
Since 1992, American made uniforms that fit and made to last like the originals.
Posts: 1,626
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Post by ww2imp on May 12, 2016 11:12:14 GMT -5
I don't know why we even bother... The new generation is bound and determined to make history fit their personal wants... Do whatever floats your boat. Don't forget the all homosexual battalions, the quad and crutch Armies, not to mention the blind Corps that were out there, on the front lines. No wonder the world is so screwed up. This was pretty funny Doc!
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