HRS vs LHRA

[MARNEPUPPY]

Jul 9, 2012 10:24:31 GMT -5 sgtsaunders said:

I don't think he's talking about non-members of a Parent Organization.

He and I are talking about Organization "not" communicating what their insurance is and is not.

Also members are NOT cover by a Organization Liablity Insurance ONLY the Organziation and the Land Even Owner is Covered. In fact the Insurance company doesn't really care who your members are, or for the Parent Organization to keep, maintain, nor submitt their offical membership rosters.

DING DING DING we have a winner! We're on the same wavelength.

Basically, by paying your dues to the organization - you are paying into a fund to cover the self perpetuating organization's ass. The organization and presence of having an insurance policy may open some doors to venues - but it is not the be all end all...

[twhigham]

Actually, members are covered by the organization's liability insurance.

Plaintiff: "I'm damaged! I'm gonna sue you, your friends, and your entire group!"

You: "You can't sue me. I'm protected as a member of that group since I was acting within the scope of the group's chartered purpose."

Organization: "That's right. So, Plaintiff, you can only sue us. Here's our insurance policy. You can send the claim to our registered agent and he'll take it from there."

If your beef is that an organization hasn't explained to you, as a individual not associated with that organization, how it's insurance works, is that on them or on you? Maybe you should ask your local organization for information.

[twhigham]

Or is the real question whether or not reenactor organizations are worth the $20 vs. just going Rogue Warrior to public events?

If so, that's really just a matter of what you want as reenactor in the way of events.

If the FHPG were to collapse, that'd pretty much be the end of tacticals down here. LHs would probably continue on a much smaller scale but tacticals and big events like air shows and veteran events would go bye-bye because of the liability associated with large-scale reenactor attendance. The more people you have, the more chances there are for something to go horribly, horribly wrong.

[TarawaJon]

I think you are right it is mainly a necessary evil but I would disagree with the other point because individuals have some level of protection with liability insurance. Insurance does not want a member list but they do rate their cost on how many members and if there was a problem they would want some proof a person was a member. They may even conduct an audit to see if the organization was telling the truth about numbers but not likely.

I do not think reenactor organization insurance covers the landowner, museum, site etc. They need their own insurance since we as reenactors do not want to pay for their problems. If a person gets cut on the edge of a metal building at an event the site insurance is responsible and not the reenactor organization insurance. That example actually happened. Has any WWII reenactor organization ever had a claim on their insurance from a reenactor having an accident involving a spectator or damaging a site?

I have seen a non-WWII reenactor organization with medical insurance. The cost was fairly high and I did not look into what the coverages actually included. Also, since all WWII reenactor organizations are volunteer groups it would get very complicated and time consuming to administer the claims that would pop up: hang nails, cut pinkie toe, M1 thumb, etc....

One more thing, any reenacting organization that sponsors an event their members have paid for the insurance. Non-members that attend are actually getting a good deal if the particular group is allowing non-members to attend. Depending on the size, duration of the event the insurance cost/person will vary (not a huge amount) but non-members essentially get that for free.

Reason for Editing: misspelling

[sgtsaunders]

Members can always sue, which is their right, if something happens. Are they covered is another issue.

The event site owner is basically a "name insured" which mean if someone sues the land owner he can "go against" the Parent Organization's policy.

If anyone wins in a lawsuit, or if the insurance company honors a claim. The Insurance company will then go after the person who caused the "accident" personally. This is the Insurance right of
subrogation.

If one member backs his halftrack into another members Jeep. - No coverage.

If one member backs his halftrack over another members foot - He can sue and bring a claim - AND IF they Insurance company pays, they will go after the Halftrack owner and/or his insurance.

-----------------------

The point to all of this is, members have no medical coverage. Nor are they personally insured by the Organization Policy. For the simply fact the Insurance company has no knowledge of who the members are day to day.

Members contributed money which may go to pay for insurance. But Members don't pay for, i.e. buy or get insurance coverage. It a false impression to think your entrance fee includes an insurance payment. That you have bought insurance.

[Deleted]

uh oh...someone brought up this issue........the fecal matter will soon impact the rotating cooling device

[twhigham]

Jul 9, 2012 13:02:38 GMT -5 sgtsaunders said:

If anyone wins in a lawsuit, or if the insurance company honors a claim. The Insurance company will then go after the person who caused the "accident" personally. This is the Insurance right of
subrogation.

Not necessarily. Mitigating risks and assumption of the risk will kick in (which is why nobody sues for football injuries). There's also indemnification rights, if such have been declared in the policy. Generally speaking, the insurance policy pushes the risk onto the organization. What would most likely happen if a claim were to be filed is that the next term's rate would increase to cover the perceived increase in risk in insuring that organization.

[TarawaJon]

There is no foolproof protection except to not have an accident which is why safety has to be taken seriously. I would be very interested to know about some real experiences with accidents and insurance in reenacting.

Whoever is part of the event, member or not, and you cause an accident at an event the event liability insurance will be involved. Not that a person is paying for personal insurance at an event but the overall cost of the policy is paid for out of membership dues and if you are not a dues paying member you get in for free. Members are actually paying for all the events for that co-op organization. Often, no insurance, no event so having liability insurance is a positive thing for a reenactor organizaztion.

It is a good idea for reenactor organizations to send a note about that every so often as to what the insurance is. This is a pretty good discussion about the business end of all this which is often never touched on.

[sgtsaunders]

There are several take aways from the discussion

1. The average member attending an event has no medical coverage outside of what ever he has personally
2. Insurance purchased by the organization, covers claims and lawsuits from people bringing claims against the Parent Org or Land Owner
3. Insurance is needed in order to secure a location for an event.
4, The Insurance Company makes no distinction between members and non-members who attend your event. They don't care.

[william03]

I don't think one is better than the other.
I have freinds in units in both, and at one point was a member of both the HRS and the TSG (now the LHRA) But it seemed silly to pay dues to two organizations, so i'm currently just LHRA as that who my unit is charted with.

Dues for the LHRA (taken from the LHRA forum, accessed 6/27/13 lhrainc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=dues&action=display&thread=428)
MEMBERSHIP DUES:
1 Year Membership= $25.00 1-Year Family $30.00
2-Year = $45.00 2-Year Family $55.00
3-Year = $65.00 3-Year Family $80.00
Lifetime = $300.00 Lifetime Family extra $50.00

Dues for the ww2 HRS (Taken from thier website, accessed 6/27/13 www.worldwartwohrs.org/JoinUs.htm)
Regular $20.00
Family $20
(+ $5 per family member)
Associate $20.00

Here is also a picture of the current LHRA insurance policy, you can take from it what ever it means, I do not speak insurance-ese. Also in quotes is the message posted above this picture on the LHRA forum. (Taken from LHRA forum accessed 6/27/13)

"Below is the LHRA's Insurance policy for LHRA sponsored events. This is to inform our members and non-members of the Insurance that we carry for each and every event we hold. This insurance is for LHRA events only and is a Yearly policy. Our policy does not cover non-LHRA events."
i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd423/urbancowboy0307/Reenacting/insurance_zpscc3e3058.png

I could not locate a similar document on the HRS website as I'm not as familiar with it.

[Bartolo]

Sooooo...I don't get dental?

Frank

[sgtsaunders]

The responsibility of "any" Parent Organization is to put on a reasonable amount of events each year. The dues people pay help support this. So while on a purely a financial basis one organization may look better to the individual member, the real judge is the organization's ability to put on events.

[Deleted]

oh man who hit this thread with the defibrillator?

[Clausen]

Sgtsaunders and twhigham have it pretty well covered as for the need of insurance. Like TarawaJon states as well, it is for liability. In a related experience I had been President to a CW club on the west coast. There was a time about 10 years ago the insurance was going through the roof. Yearly dues was increased to $40.00 per year to help cover premium increases. I and @5 other club presidents got together on just this issue. We found that if we all had a common set of safety rules that were adopted by all clubs we could create an umbrella group for liability insurance. The umbrella group allowed us to get lower rates and that was due to “member size”, common safety goals and as far as the insurance companies saw it as a single point of contact. Cost per member was taking the premium cost and divided by the number of members to equate the insurance part of membership cost. As each club had different number of members, their contribution to the premium would obviously different from club to club. The biggest catch was every club issued membership cards so all you had to do was show your card to participate in any club event – you already paid into the insurance and may only have to fork up for the even cost. If you didn’t have a club card you paid any entrance fee + participation fee + take a safety test to prove you are aware of organizational safety regulations.

There is far more that goes on in the background than most members are aware of.

Just my 2 cents

[gunner9091]

I was part of a reenacting group for CW in morgan co Ohio. And there was an insurance offered the covered the
Reenactor from the time he left his house to go the the event to the time he got back to his house. O have to do some research on this but I think there was a differce in the insurance for the event and this insurance.

[TarawaJon]

Jan 5, 2015 21:44:03 GMT -5 gunner9091 said:

I was part of a reenacting group for CW in morgan co Ohio. And there was an insurance offered the covered the
Reenactor from the time he left his house to go the the event to the time he got back to his house. O have to do some research on this but I think there was a differce in the insurance for the event and this insurance.

Covered for what?

[gunner9091]

injury and such don't rightly remember all of it. but it was for the reenactors themselves I am sure about that part

[TarawaJon]

Jan 6, 2015 21:49:48 GMT -5 gunner9091 said:

injury and such don't rightly remember all of it. but it was for the reenactors themselves I am sure about that part

How much did you pay for it per person?

TJ

[gunner9091]

I think it was with other units so it was like 25-30

[texasarmor]

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