Corporal J. Kuligowski
T/4.
"Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death." Omar N. Bradley
Posts: 189
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Post by Corporal J. Kuligowski on Jul 4, 2012 0:22:14 GMT -5
What is the Differences between HRS and LHRA? Is one better then the other? DO they offer different services?
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Post by AtlanticWallBlanks on Jul 4, 2012 7:44:46 GMT -5
Who is in charge of the LHRA? The HRS has made some very positive moves but like any "legacy" organization, many of its' leadership are there simply for political reasons. Give the LHRA enough time and the same will be true of them. Is the LHRA the reboot of the TSG? My unit is HRS though 2 of us have not signed up being GWA members. We feel that a similar organization with stronger rules trumps any other but you know what they say about opinions. Maybe each organization should come here and put out a talking point. 500 words or less. What is each one doing to expand the hobby 11 years after Band of Brothers? There was just a paintball D-Day event with over 7K people. Why can't we get more than 75? (beyond the obvious reasons) We should also invite the CHG, RPS, TMHS, WWIILHA, Federation ( yea right : , TSG and the other to do the same. Not allow anyone but a rep from each org. to post in the thread. Sorry if I forgot any group, not fully caffeinated yet) Robb
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battlebaby2
1st Lieutenant
Event Coordinator, The Bridge at Remagen, Tidioute ,Pa
Posts: 1,005
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Post by battlebaby2 on Jul 4, 2012 9:03:30 GMT -5
This hobby of WW II reenacting can get BIG numbers for events if we all work together. When I did CW Reenacting almost 48 states people came to Antietam for the 135th Anniv. Gettysburg we had 12k plus. I was Western Brigade with my now defunct CW unit. We all got along for the 4 day event. Our unit the 99th Infantry Division is now our own Historical Society,file taxes with the Feds. We here in Pa were part of TSG and HRS years ago. Sorry to say not advantage to either or any of theses groups. In many of National WW II groups thier rules effect events for poor turnout. Too many rules and this effects the hobby. My members are on a tight budget our 99th uniform is basic for a dogface soldier. I can't tell a new guy you need 2 pair of boots for different events and leggings too ect. It is best to be on your own. If theses BIG people come here to speak I am willing to listen. 1st where does 20 bucks in yearly dues go? Whos's pocket? For Insurance ,if so we all want to see the policy and coverage plus yearly cost? If I get hurt or break something, who do I call to use it? What you get with membership, a card, a nice newsletter, a vehicle say tank that will support your local event cause you a member of this National group? Your units name will be copyrighted? Since 1999 the Battlebabies of NW Pa have been told all of this plus more. The only thing we ever saw was a membership card. For what its worth---
Pat
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sgtsaunders
1st Lieutenant
take the point!
Posts: 1,351
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Post by sgtsaunders on Jul 4, 2012 15:44:11 GMT -5
World War II Organizations ideally are "Co-Op" of member units, which come together for their collective common good of the members they represent; so they have things to do and place to go. 1. They should have at least 4 or more units, but ideally have 6 or more, split between Allied and Axis. 2. They should have at least 75 members, but ideally have 100 or more 3. They should stage, promote, or support at least 5 events a year, whether those be tactical battles, airshows, or Living History events. 4. Should have some sort of organization dues, to support running the club. 5. Have periodic board meetings, and not just be a virtual organization which exists only on the internet. 6. Ideally represent one geographic area of the country with little overlap of another WW2 Parent Co-Op. Below are most if not all the Parent Co-Op Organizations in the United States. Website – Forum- [CHG] California Historical Group (24 units) Website – Forum- [RPS] Research & Preservation Society (12 units) Website – Forum- [NWTO] Northwest Theater of Operations (4 units) Website – Forum- [AG44] Army Group 44 (9 units) Website – Forum- [WMHS] Western Military Historical Society (5 units) Website – Forum- [NWHA] Northwest Historical Association (5 units) Website – Forum- [GPWA] Great Patriotic War Association (2 units) Website – Forum- [HFA] Historical Forces Association (7 units) Website – Forum- [CMHG] Colorado Military History Group, Inc (6 units) Website – Forum- [TMHS] Texas Military Historical Society (17 units) Website – Forum- [HRS] Historical Reenactment Society (106 units) Website – Forum- [LHRA] Living History Reenactment Association (aka TSG) (48 units) Website – Forum- [HAF] Historical Association of Florida Website – Forum- [FHPG] Florida Historical Preservation Group Website – Forum- [W2HPG] WW2 Historical Preservation Group (12 units) Website – Forum- [SWWIIRA] WW2 Southern WWII Reenactors Association (14 units) Website – Forum- [VCMHA] Virginia Carolina Military History Association, Inc (4 units) Also to check out the history of any off these organizaton check out their website today, and year ago or five years ago. Have they grown or have they shrunk in the number of units they represent or the events they promote or stage. archive.org/web/web.php
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Post by twhigham on Jul 6, 2012 9:12:15 GMT -5
The FHPG also has a Facebook group, as more people access FB via their phones now. Just do a search on "Florida Historical Preservation Group" on FB and you can see our conversations (NOTE: not everyone on that page is an official member).
Also, we're moving from a "unit" focus to more of a "individual member" focus; individuals sign on and pay their $20 for insurance. They may be a member of a unit, but not necessarily everyone in that unit is a member of FHPG. Florida is a very transient state with units bubbling up for a year, then breaking apart as guys move out of state. There was some concern that "if my unit breaks up, am I still a member?" so we moved in the direction of individual memberships.
Not only did this make it easier to track memberships, it also allowed us to leverage our members' contacts in their communities. If a guy heard of an organization (such as a library, small museum, or school) looking for reenactors, he could come directly to me or anyone else on the board and instantly trigger the DEFCON system to get everyone on alert. We then put a presentation together of our capabilities, pull feedback from the host organization, and get an event together.
We're always interested in partnering with other groups outside of Florida. Myself and our treasurer were at the Military Air Museum's Virginia Beach air show to see how things are done mid-Atlantic and also to make some connections with other groups. I'm surprised that, other than Peachtree and Toccoa, there doesn't seem to be much shaking in Georgia and Alabama.
We'll be having our next org meeting at the Dade Memorial Battlefield Park WW2 Commemoration event (August 4, 5), since most of us will be there and it's the unofficial start of the fall reenacting season. We average 2 events a month, sometimes 3 in November, February, March, and April.
The biggest event we stage is the annual Cu Chi Vietnam tactical, which dates change each year due to the scheduling of the BSA camp we use. This year we'll also be staging a Hurtgen Forest WW2 tactical in December in DeLand on some undeveloped wooded property.
As far as how many members we have, I'm not really sure. That will be settled up at the Dade event.
Like most things, we're constantly changing and adapting. We started as an Airborne group but are bringing on members with other impressions while adding new impressions to our own Airborne repertoire. To say we're a 101st group would only be about 30% true now. We also cover USMC, Air Corps, Vietnam, Navy, German, 2nd Armored, and homefront.
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sgtsaunders
1st Lieutenant
take the point!
Posts: 1,351
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Post by sgtsaunders on Jul 6, 2012 11:11:55 GMT -5
Insurance?
What does the individual player get in the way of coverage for their $20.00
Most if not all Organization Insurance polices are to cover the "land owner" for the day of the event. Also to protect the Organization Entity from lawsuits. These policies don't cover the indivdual who trips and falls and breaks his/her arm. Nor do they cover damage to vehicles which roll off into a ditch.
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Post by Boogiewoogie on Jul 6, 2012 11:45:55 GMT -5
Insurance covers the damage that the halftrack does backing into a telephone pole, sometimes. It covers the organization. I have paid for part of a reenacting fire on public lands, in the 80's. Insurance might have paid some of that now.
It does not cover anyone from acts of negligence.
It is not personal insurance to cover injuries.
Martin
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Post by twhigham on Jul 6, 2012 13:40:13 GMT -5
As Martin said, the insurance is to protect the organization and its members. Most museums and other landowners want to see that you have that insurance before they'll let you utilize their property.
If we don't have insurance, we can't stage anything.
Usually, the money you pay as a participant goes towards rental expenses for that event, plus insurance money for the next policy term. That's why at some events you'll see two rates - one for members (who have already paid their insurance portion through dues) and one for non-members. Members also have the advantage of knowing about "invite only" events where the fun factor is a bit higher, such as hanging out with Winghouse girls at golf tournaments.
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sgtsaunders
1st Lieutenant
take the point!
Posts: 1,351
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Post by sgtsaunders on Jul 6, 2012 14:00:57 GMT -5
The point is the organization pays the insurance. So when you say the member pays thier $20 insurance; It nothing more than a contribution to the Organization general fund. The individual person's payment of $20 is just a payment. It can't be implied to be going directly to insurance.
Also as Martin points out a person paying $20 get no insurance coverage for himself. Insurance doesn't protect the members, just the organization.
There are many reenactors out there who think they are personal covered. This is made worse when they are told they have to pay a premium for insurance.
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Post by twhigham on Jul 6, 2012 15:15:27 GMT -5
"What happens to my $20?"
"It goes for insurance."
You-->Organization-->Insurance Company
The insurance is to protect you from being sued by the landowner for damages to his property. So yeah, you do get insurance for your $20.
Every year we prepare a ledger that shows how the money has been spent. Last year 100% went to insurance costs and state filing fees as a non-profit. Year before that it was the same, less about $100 we paid for a post-funeral party (yes, party) for a much-beloved member that had died suddenly in a motorcycle crash.
Trust me. Being a director of a reenacting organization is a thankless job, but at least you know it's being done as right as you can do it.
I would imagine it's not much different for the other organizations out there, other than variations in by-laws.
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sgtsaunders
1st Lieutenant
take the point!
Posts: 1,351
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Post by sgtsaunders on Jul 6, 2012 15:52:57 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse, but there lots and lots of individual reenactors who THINK they are personally covered at events. They are not covered nor are they protected, only the parent organization is covered.
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Post by MARNEPUPPY on Jul 6, 2012 16:16:49 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse, but there lots and lots of individual reenactors who THINK they are personally covered at events. They are not covered nor are they protected, only the parent organization is covered. Why is it that they THINK that they are covered? Is it that the large organization have FAILED to effectively COMMUNICATE with their members?
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Corporal J. Kuligowski
T/4.
"Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death." Omar N. Bradley
Posts: 189
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Post by Corporal J. Kuligowski on Jul 7, 2012 10:46:00 GMT -5
As our small group is almost to the requirement of entrance to HRS, I was looking for the Benefits. We went to the Benton Harbor event for the first time, and in the 4 years of reenacting, this was the first event that required HRS. The original question was more about which of these reenacting groups benefit us a a group the most. Besides the Insurance, from what it seems like these Organizations don't do much in terms of expanding the hobby, host their own events or work with event organizers to effectively do S and A.
I am hesitant to join these organizations because of the feeling that they don't help as much as they should. I mean to be a member, all you need is a unit history and a check for membership. Many of the reenacting websites state it is a responsibility to have correct looking units. How can this be done if they are only doing the above mentioned for membership. I would have more respect for an organization that has Representatives come to events and check out units to see if they are portraying their unit effectively and accurately. There are so many HRS sanctioned units that are far from looking authentic.
Just my opinion.
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dogcomedic
1st Sgt.
"We were just a damn fine ski club till we got the s*** shot out of us in Italy"
Posts: 691
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Post by dogcomedic on Jul 7, 2012 11:43:02 GMT -5
As our small group is almost to the requirement of entrance to HRS, I was looking for the Benefits. We went to the Benton Harbor event for the first time, and in the 4 years of reenacting, this was the first event that required HRS. The original question was more about which of these reenacting groups benefit us a a group the most. Besides the Insurance, from what it seems like these Organizations don't do much in terms of expanding the hobby, host their own events or work with event organizers to effectively do S and A. I am hesitant to join these organizations because of the feeling that they don't help as much as they should. I mean to be a member, all you need is a unit history and a check for membership. Many of the reenacting websites state it is a responsibility to have correct looking units. How can this be done if they are only doing the above mentioned for membership. I would have more respect for an organization that has Representatives come to events and check out units to see if they are portraying their unit effectively and accurately. There are so many HRS sanctioned units that are far from looking authentic. Just my opinion. My unit has been an LHRA unit since inception and we attended St. Joe Benton with no problems whatsoever. You did not have to be exclusively an HRS unit to attend, just that your society be recognized by HRS and that they share insurance info, S&A rules, etc. Now most midwest events are either HRS or LHRA sponsored. Few events are not either of these two, and in the past few years more and more new events are being started by units within these organizations so IMO they are doing lots to expand the hobby. All you need to is visit the HRS or LHRA official websites to get a gander at the events sponsored. If I'm not mistaken, HRS has sponsored to date this year, Lowell, Lansing, Van Hoosen, Fox Trolley, IRM, Dixon, St. Joe, Trimborn Farmand also has on the list for events upcoming Yorkville, Lockport, Rockford, and more than I can recall at this point. LHRA sponsors events too, Camp Atterbury for one....So, they are expanding the hobby thru their member units. S&A is another story. That is usually done by the S&A committee members of each society at each event. There are rules established, everyone knows them, enforcement is another issue. There will always be gripes about authenticity. One way to improve that is to work within a larger framework than try to police 100 individual non-society units at an event. You can work from within to make change if you're part of a society, but only grip about it if you are not. I think that I heard that a gentleman was not allowed out at St.Joe due to authenticity issues. Now as far as a unit history and check as all there is for membership, I think you're wrong there. My unit has petitioned to HRS for a charter in addition to our charter at LHRA. We applied months ago. The HRS S&A committed has had questions about our TO&E and other things and we continue to provide answers to them. They take that job seriously, otherwise we would have just been rubber stamped quite some time ago. You gotta convince these folks that what you are doing is authentic and correct. You should know more about your unit history, TO&E, specialties, etc. than they do and should be able to prove whatever you claim. What do societies provide? Yeah, insurance, that's a no brainer. But I think that the real value is not in concrete benefits, but in the fact that they provide legitimacy to what we do. A large society with rules, regs, and structure is more likely to be viewed as a responsible, viable entity, than a bunch of freelancers. We have all kinds of problems today with the press; being viewed as gun totin' rednecks, etc. A cover organization with structure makes others look at us in a different light than 5 guys and a jeep doing their own thing. Can you imagine an event where just anyone can walk on and take part without some sort of credential? Can you imagine a St. Joe event where a guy off the street can walk in with a uniform and weapon by himself or a small group and take part in a battle? You may say, why not? But I'd like to know that someone out there has checked their being legitimate, safe and authentic before they start shooting at me during an event. So, perhaps what you're buying in reality is legitimacy. Your unit is vetted, members researched, questioned, poked, prodded and stewed. You go thru a process to belong and when it is done, you get the right to say " We belong to X, and adhere to its rules and regulations. We are not just a bunch of freelancers. We are members of a large organization that has been around a while and we want all to know that we're doing our best to do it right." Now, you can do this on your own, I'm not saying you can't. If you want independence, there is a price. Prepare to be questioned on your impressions, camps, attitudes, etc. If you don't belong to a reciprocal approved society, don't be angry when turned away if that is a requirement to be part of a reenactment. Unless the event is funded by the state or feds, or the museum, farm, historical society also is funded that way, the Society sponsoring it has the right to turn away a unit that does not meet its requirements. We are members of the LHRA, 10th Mountain LHDG (a national organization & 501C3) and soon HRS. Does it cost something? Yeah. But so does your kit, weapon, tents, transportation costs for an event, etc. This isn't a cheap hobby. Why try to go cheap and not protect not only yourself, but your unit and your personal reputation? My reputation is worth a lot to me, and so it that of my unit. Being part of a society lets other's know that you care enough to put your research and impression out there for all to see that you have passed muster. Perhaps that also is the big benefit. Civil War guys for the most part have no societies mandating authenticity and having migrated from CW years ago, I can tell you that there is no real S&A, just weapons inspections. Good units take authenticity seriously, but you have to do it yourself there. No policing of the farby units, no authority to do it.... Ramble is just about over but it just comes down to that. Benefits can be: Reputation. Legitimacy. Group vs. Personal responsiblity. Liability. Everyone can make their own choice. Doc Phil
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Post by 137e R.I. on Jul 7, 2012 18:01:47 GMT -5
My beef with all of these societies is that smaller units, i.e. those portraying less popular and/or less known impressions, are not allowed to publicize and recruit as a chartered group. I'm speaking in terms of less than 5 members. This forces us to be adopted by another, larger unit in order to gain membership. While I've never found this to be too much of a hassle, and the unit which has adopted me fort he past 2-3 years has always been very kind and accommodating. I should also say that in the events I attend, my portrayal is noted for all to see.
I just wonder why it is that charter is limited to 5 or more members. I find it all unnecessary, and it smacks of elitism and shows preference for larger more well known groups insofar as representation in concerned. There should be a "other nations" charter for those individuals like myself who are known and have been vetted as a way of eliminating the "man off the streets", which IMO is a very valid concern.
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35divmp
Captain
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Posts: 2,648
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Post by 35divmp on Jul 7, 2012 20:16:40 GMT -5
My rant is over, all i can say is be careful with any society you belong to because from my experience they are not there for preserving history. Eric: You should have been in the "original" TSG when I, Bill Baros and the late Richard Cornwell formed it back in 1988. We were "preserving history" back then (the TSG never made a profit back then). Jay
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sgtsaunders
1st Lieutenant
take the point!
Posts: 1,351
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Post by sgtsaunders on Jul 7, 2012 22:24:31 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what the Parent Co-op is, FBI, CIA, DOD or what ever the only reasons to join one is:
1. The unit your interested in joining is a member of one 2. The Parent Co-Op sponsors their "own" events 3. You get some sort of discounts at events because of your membership.
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TarawaJon
2nd Lieutenant
Issue in doubt!
Posts: 990
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Post by TarawaJon on Jul 8, 2012 1:15:49 GMT -5
In general insurance does not do a whole lot for you. If I did not pay those premiums all these years I would probably have my house paid off. Of course the tornado last week made that sort of worth it. In any case, if you deal with contractors before they are allowed on your facility they are checked for up to date liability insurance with levels high enough to satisfy Risk Management, Purchasing, Accounting whatever. No insurance, no set foot on property. Of course if you allow a contractor onto the property without insurance you will be potentially in big trouble. Does anything ever happen to a contractor? Not very often if ever. Of course that garbage truck knocked over a light pole recently. The driver was not in trouble legally but the company had to pay for the damage and not the driver. Hopefully the garbage company did not have to pay 100 percent of the cost and the insurance picked up most of it. The insurance is just the cost of doing business. The insurance we as reenactors are often forced to provide is liability insurance. Costs per person probably range from $5-$10 per year for an organization. To provide medical insurance you would need to double at least and as claims would be made that number would most likely rise exponentially in the following years. But we do not have to worry about that sort thing anymore now that we are all covered. Not every event requires reenactors to have insurance but I kind of wonder are they sure? Do they know what their insurance covers? Not all insurance companies look kindly on people shooting modern weapons at each other and driving around in tanks. I hate to start thinking about this but to act responsibly we have no choice. The bottom line is that we all have to do our best to make sure our weapons function correctly, no one accidentally has a few rounds in their pocket from the range last week, everyone know where to point and where not to point a weapon, and so on to prevent accidents. If you accidentally in a public battle knock someone down and they break an arm your organization liability insurance should pay for the damages and not you. IN this sense you should feel some relief. You could still get personally sued but most likely the ambulance chasers would go for the big pockets first like a museum or park; reenacting organization; and then you. It is just kind of sad that we all live this way now. If you are unsure of your reenacting insurance or do not understand it contact the director or president, etc of your group and ask them for the declaration page of the insurance. They may not want to send out the entire policy which can be many pages of soon to be scrap paper but this will have the type, coverages, and name the organization and satisfy your basic questions. This type of document is provided by all kinds of organizations and business everyday to whatever entity they are dealing with so they are not state secrets.
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Post by twhigham on Jul 9, 2012 9:47:08 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse, but there lots and lots of individual reenactors who THINK they are personally covered at events. They are not covered nor are they protected, only the parent organization is covered. Why is it that they THINK that they are covered? Is it that the large organization have FAILED to effectively COMMUNICATE with their members? Why would an organization communicate to an individual reenactor that he isn't covered by the organization if he isn't a member of that organization? Unless of course, it's a recruiting pitch. All organizations I know of require you to be a member in order to be covered by that organization's liability insurance. I think you're confusing liability insurance with medical insurance. No reenacting organization provides medical insurance.
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sgtsaunders
1st Lieutenant
take the point!
Posts: 1,351
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Post by sgtsaunders on Jul 9, 2012 10:24:31 GMT -5
I don't think he's talking about non-members of a Parent Organization.
He and I are talking about Organization "not" communicating what their insurance is and is not.
Also members are NOT cover by a Organization Liablity Insurance ONLY the Organziation and the Land Even Owner is Covered. In fact the Insurance company doesn't really care who your members are, or for the Parent Organization to keep, maintain, nor submitt their offical membership rosters.
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