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Post by Rapture on May 27, 2011 21:53:22 GMT -5
Can I ask why you would choose to kit out as something that's hard to research? Family attachment? As Friscan said I wanted a challenge and have been doing my best to research it but there still areas where my research is lacking and I hope to fix that. I have read a few works on the 82nd but if anyone has any reading suggestions please drop some suggestions. Im currently reading my way through strike and hold and have already read All the way to Berlin. |
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Post by TC1c Dunigan on May 27, 2011 22:05:05 GMT -5
Contact "wiggins" here on the forums he's been doing a LOT of in depth research into the 504th PIR. He will be a wealth of information to you.  Regards, FRISCAN |
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Post by wiggins on May 28, 2011 7:18:52 GMT -5
Not on the 504th Pathfinders though! Josh has some really great information and it looks like you're on to a good start. If you ever want to attend an event down south with a 504th group, let me know!
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Doc Butzen
2nd Lieutenant 
Does this Swastika make me look fat?!
Posts: 984
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Post by Doc Butzen on May 28, 2011 16:04:17 GMT -5
The only Pathfinder pics I have seen are the 3 505th sticks. Thats all.
Doc Butzen
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Post by Rapture on May 31, 2011 12:55:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the words of encouragement guys Ill keep the research going and post up my kit again as it develops.
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Doc Butzen
2nd Lieutenant
Does this Swastika make me look fat?!
Posts: 984
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Post by Doc Butzen on May 31, 2011 15:08:41 GMT -5
Good luck  It's always a lot of fun to research the harder impressions. I personally love doing it. But my advise is if you do 504th pathfinder... Also do 504th in Italy. Italy is where the 504th truely made its name and sadly very few people do that impression. Everyone is always so focused on Normandy, that the MTO is quite often forgotten. Doc Butzen |
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Post by Rapture on May 31, 2011 16:39:49 GMT -5
Good luck It's always a lot of fun to research the harder impressions. I personally love doing it. But my advise is if you do 504th pathfinder... Also do 504th in Italy. Italy is where the 504th truely made its name and sadly very few people do that impression. Everyone is always so focused on Normandy, that the MTO is quite often forgotten. Doc Butzen I actually did Italy 504 at the memorial parade in Danbury CT yesterday. Sadly I didnt take a 360 shot but heres 2 pictures so you get an idea of my kit so far. Before the parade and after it downpoured for 2 hours so Im pretty soaked i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/Chubbs69fu/250090_10150255827391789_689981788_8788867_1632137_n.jpgAs you can see I ditched the GP bag for a thompson bag and got rid of the ankh on my helmet. Also switched the A1 for a military 1928 Heres me on the ride back on the parade on a sheriden (Not WW2 but couldnt resist riding back to the museum in style) i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/Chubbs69fu/252156_10150255567591789_689981788_8785768_6095905_n.jpgAgain this is a really rough start and is a work in progress |
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Doc Butzen
2nd Lieutenant
Does this Swastika make me look fat?!
Posts: 984
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Post by Doc Butzen on Jun 1, 2011 1:09:01 GMT -5
Better start than most to be honest.
Doc Butzen
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baldwin507th
Private 
"Once your feet hit the ground it's all walking from there!"
Posts: 7
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Post by baldwin507th on Jun 12, 2011 10:40:20 GMT -5
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Post by TC1c Dunigan on Jun 12, 2011 15:40:12 GMT -5
Baldwin,
Its easy... look for the camped jump 42's. The 504th camoed their 42's.
In Plane 17 - there are five camoed 42's toward the doorway of the C-47. On Plane 18 - the easiest on to see is all the way to the right.
Regards,
FRISCAN
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Post by 1stofthefirst on Jun 12, 2011 17:27:03 GMT -5
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Post by redjoshman on Jun 12, 2011 18:50:21 GMT -5
McCallion, The bottom helmet picture set, with the Captain's insignia, appears to be another set of photographs of Capt. Hauptfleisch's helmet. The other helmet, the one with the White and black ankh, something about it seems weird to me. What is the documentation/history behind that helmet? The reason I am asking the helmet just doesn't seem as used as a helmet that went through through the whole war should be and the only BN I have seen documentation for the use of "Stained Glass" Camo pattern is the 2/504, which from the Capt.'s testimony used only the Blue Ankh. To me it looks like a used recreated helmet. However I may be wrong. A Not 100% sure here, but I think there is some question as to the reinforcement of the 504 troopers uniforms. In Italy they were not reinforced, and there may be some ambiguity as to if the 504 pathfinders had the 'standard' reinforced suit. I have many photos in a reference book here of 82nd troopers in Normandy with reinforced 42s. As for the 504th having them it is pretty much impossible for me to tell due to lack of photos but in Holland I have seen a few pictures of the reinforced jump suit as well as a mix of unreinforced and m43s! 82nd really was a mixed bag for Holland. Sean and rapture, From what I have gathered from my research of the 504th PIR is that there were several types of Reinforcing: "MTO Style" Reinforcing(as I call it): This is a style of reinforcing that is commonly seen in the 504th as early as Sicily, and is seen in many Airborne Units from the Sicily Drop to the Dragoon Drop. It consists of sewing down the Leg Cargo pockets with thick White thread and often doing the same to the lower pockets on the M42 Jump Jacket. This would be OK for a 504th Impression in the MTO and possibly have some guys still wearing them for Market Garden and later. "504th Style" Reinforcing: This the famous 504th Style of reinforcing commonly attributed to the 504th in Italy. It is composed of leather reinforcements to the Knees of the Trousers and Elbows of the Jacket, with Nylon parachute webbing(?) being used on the Cargo Pockets on the Trousers and on the Lower pockets of the Jump Jacket. However Uniforms of this style of reinforcing are extremely rare and I have not myself seen a photograph of this style being actually used. Because of this I would not recommend a reenactor using this style until more documentation is found regarding this reinforcing style. The suits that were reinforced this way were probably used in Italy and possibly for the Holland drop and beyond. "Standard Style" Reinforcing: This is the style of reinforcing that pops up into ones mind when one pictures a reinforced uniform. From What I have seen you do start seeing 504th guys in the late Spring of '44 beginning to wear this style of reinforcing while training in England after returning from Anzio. By Market Garden the most common way for a 504th trooper to wear his M42 uniform is to wear it with this style of Reinforcing. Sometimes spotting this style is hard to do because some Black and White film makes the Canvas used to reinforce the uniform and the uniform itself appear the same color, so one must also look out for the tell tale extra stitching/seems. What this means for some one portraying a member a person detached from the 504th PIR to serve as a pathfinder for the Normandy Invasion is that they would most likely be wearing a reinforced M42 Uniform of the "Standard Style". Baldwin, Its easy... look for the camped jump 42's. The 504th camoed their 42's. In Plane 17 - there are five camoed 42's toward the doorway of the C-47. On Plane 18 - the easiest on to see is all the way to the right. Regards, FRISCAN Jim, As 1stofthefirst shows it was not only members of the 504th the camoed up their M42s, as all three sticks of the 505th Pathfinders did it, and certain members of certain sticks of the 507th and the 508th did it, that did not contain 504th Troopers. Also there is a picture in one of the books about the 82nd Airborne that both me a Wiggins recall( I remember seeing it on my visit to the Pritzker Military Library) that shows a group photograph of the 504 Pathfinders and if I recall most were not wearing camouflage M42 suits(however this may just be due to the fact that were camouflaged once they joined up with the stick). if I am not mistaken, all of the 504th pathfinders were killed on or about D-Day weren't they? I remember in one of the books that I examined at the Pritzker military library mentioning something to that effect. However I am not entirely sure and I wouldn't make a statement like that till I was. -Josh |
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Post by TC1c Dunigan on Jun 12, 2011 19:22:30 GMT -5
Jim, As 1stofthefirst shows it was not only members of the 504th the camoed up their M42s, as all three sticks of the 505th Pathfinders did it, and certain members of certain sticks of the 507th and the 508th did it, that did not contain 504th Troopers. Also there is a picture in one of the books about the 82nd Airborne that both me a Wiggins recall( I remember seeing it on my visit to the Pritzker Military Library) that shows a group photograph of the 504 Pathfinders and if I recall most were not wearing camouflage M42 suits(however this may just be due to the fact that were camouflaged once they joined up with the stick) -Josh The 504th camoed their 42's much earlier then the sticks for D-Day. They had camoed them in Italy. Of which the camo pattern was MUCH different then the camo we see for the sticks on D-Day. I'm not much up on the 504th PIR but, this I do know. Matt, may be able to shed more light on it. He's been researching the 504th in this aspect for a couple of years now. Regards, FRISCAN |
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Post by 1stofthefirst on Jun 12, 2011 19:26:25 GMT -5
I was mistaken. While some were killed and many were taken prisoner, some were killed later and many survived the war. www.504thpir.net/docs/Pathfinders.pdfI remember reading that most were killed or catured on D-Day, but I can't remember where. I thought it was one of the Nordyke books or might have been All The Way To Berlin...Obviously that was bad info.... |
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Post by redjoshman on Jun 12, 2011 20:30:09 GMT -5
The 504th camoed their 42's much earlier then the sticks for D-Day. They had camoed them in Italy. Of which the camo pattern was MUCH different then the camo we see for the sticks on D-Day. I'm not much up on the 504th PIR but, this I do know. Matt, may be able to shed more light on it. He's been researching the 504th in this aspect for a couple of years now. Regards, FRISCAN Friscan, The only 504th units that wore camoed M42s were the 2/504 and elements of the 1/504 and that was only done for the Sicily drop. I or Matt have not found evidence for the 3/504 doing this or this practice being carried on later into Italy. The 2/504 got this idea from there commander, Yarborough, who had gotten and had implemented the idea while in command of the 509th PIB(at the time 2/503rd PIB). Matt and I speculate that the 1/504 did it(albeit in much smaller numbers than the 2/504) because they were stationed at the same airfield while the 3/504 was already on the ground fighting in Sicily. I or Matt have not seen any evidence of Camoed M42s being used after Sicily. Basically unless you are portraying a member of 2/504 or 1/504(though in this Bn it was not nearly as common as it was in 2/504) during the Sicily Invasion you should not be wearing a Camoed M42. The only exception to that rule is if possibly if you are portraying one the extremely few members of the 504th PIR who were detached temporarily to participate as pathfinders during the Normandy Drop. I was mistaken. While some were killed and many were taken prisoner, some were killed later and many survived the war. www.504thpir.net/docs/Pathfinders.pdfI remember reading that most were killed or catured on D-Day, but I can't remember where. I thought it was one of the Nordyke books or might have been All The Way To Berlin...Obviously that was bad info.... 1stofthefirst, That is a cool link. -Josh |
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Post by Rapture on Jun 13, 2011 14:05:11 GMT -5
Thanks for all the great info guys I really appreciate it.
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GOYA
M/Sgt. 
Get Off Your A$&!
Posts: 570
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Post by GOYA on Jun 13, 2011 22:13:06 GMT -5
if I am not mistaken, all of the 504th pathfinders were killed on or about D-Day weren't they?
No, I know of at least 2 who werent. Rigapoulos and Hannigan. Rigapoulos was KIA shortly after making the Waal River crossing, on 20 Sept. Interestingly enough, Sgt. Hannigan was nearby when he was hit and stayed with him til he died, about a halfhour. Under that murderous fire, he stayed with him as he didnt want his friend to die alone. Mr. Hannigan is still alive and remembers John in his prayers every night. He's a true gentle man and a gentleman. I was with him and Maggie Megellas in Holland in May where he told me that story. And to the poster who has the pic of Sgt. Fowler as their avatar, nice choice! A great trooper.
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Post by redjoshman on Jun 14, 2011 17:38:31 GMT -5
And to the poster who has the pic of Sgt. Fowler as their avatar, nice choice! A great trooper. Thank you, I chose the picture not only of the subject but also because it is one of my favorite pictures taken by Capa of the 3/504 prior to the Sicily Jump. -Josh |
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