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Post by Rapture on May 26, 2011 13:28:26 GMT -5
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Thumper
Forum Admin MP & POTW MP 
Posts: 4,314
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Post by Thumper on May 26, 2011 13:47:16 GMT -5
Move the first aid kit off your helmet and onto your combat suspenders, preferably on the left (unless you're left handed that is).
If you're basing it off the 505, get the smaller mesh helmet net.
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Post by redjoshman on May 26, 2011 16:19:16 GMT -5
You have a Blue Ankh on your helmet. The Blue Ankh was a 2/504 thing, and even then present with it was a German World War I "Stained Glass" style camouflage job. Quote from 2nd Lt. Hauptfleisch F Co. 2/504 to that effect: That Helmet carried me through all but perhaps 15 of the the total 279 combat days officially credited to the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, which I served as a letter company officer, battalion S-2, and regimental S-1. That time period covered the five campaigns of Sicily, Italy(Naples-Foggia), Italy(Rome-Arno), Holland(Market), and the Ardennes Offensive. I am enclosing several pictures of myself with that identical helmet. I say that because I know it was never damaged, misplaced, or stolen and stayed in my possession after it was originally issued to me. For the record, that helmet was issued to me on September 2, 1942 at Fort Benning in Georgia. It was camouflaged in North Africa prior to our July 1943 jump into Sicily. I was then a 2nd Lt. in 'F' Company. All of us in the 2nd Battalion had our helmets camouflaged in that manner. As you can tell, the camouflaging was done by hand and not via any assembly line and presumably by our battalion S-4 Section. I have no knowledge as to the source of the camouflage pattern applied or the selection of the paints. It was Bill Yarborough's idea in view of his earlier involvement with the parachute drop in North Africa. I believe that the materials used were those that were available in North Africa and suitable for the purpose. Considering that supplies in general were relatively short, I feel that our battalion "painters" did a good job. That blue Egyptian cross on the helmet is an item that, hard to believe, remains a mystery to me. Logically, I would guess that it was a distinguishing mark to identify the 2nd Battalion troopers. Both the enlisted men and the officers in the 2nd Battalion had that blue cross insignia on their helmet. I do not recall the 1st and 3rd Battalions did in this regard. Capt.(then 2nd Lt.) Hauptfleisch's helmet that was referred to in the quote: i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Misc%20Pics/2%20504%20Helmets/2504Helmet_00013.jpgi300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Misc%20Pics/2%20504%20Helmets/2504Helmet_00023.jpgAnother 2/504 provenanced helmet: i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Misc%20Pics/2%20504%20Helmets/2504Helmet_NEW2.jpgSome original photographs of 2/504 guys using them: Caption: The grin on the face of Pfc. Andrew Warner, 2nd Battalion, 504th PIR, and of the sorry condition of his helmet bear testimony to a close call on the Italian front. A shell fragment pierced his helmet, but obviously left his head in good condition. Photo: i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Misc%20Pics/2%20504%20Helmets/2504Helmet_NEW1.jpgCaption:Sicily, 1943, Pfc. Kenneth S. Nicoll, 2nd Bn., 504th PIR. Photo: i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Misc%20Pics/2%20504%20Helmets/2504Helmet_NEW.jpgCaption:North Africa, 1943, Maj. Yarbough, C.O. 2nd Bn., 504th PIR. Photo: i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Misc%20Pics/2%20504%20Helmets/2504Helmet0003_NEW.jpgAlso, I would use a Thompson Rigger Ammo pouch and/or a Thompson Ammunition Bag to carry ammunition for your Thompson instead of the GP Bag. Photos of Thompson gunners in Normandy(most of these are 505th ID'd): (Also not in the below photograph the BAR and the Bayonet strapped to the leg) i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Original%20Photos/Army/Paratroopers/82nd%20Abn%20Div/sc002b9d9e.jpg(Possible 504th guy? Note Tanker Jacket) i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Original%20Photos/Army/Paratroopers/82nd%20Abn%20Div/505th%20PIR%20Normandy/505th44_0001.jpgi300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Original%20Photos/Army/Paratroopers/82nd%20Abn%20Div/505th%20PIR%20Normandy/505th40_0001.jpgi300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Original%20Photos/Army/Paratroopers/82nd%20Abn%20Div/505th%20PIR%20Normandy/505th37_0001.jpgi300.photobucket.com/albums/nn24/redjoshman/Original%20Photos/Army/Paratroopers/82nd%20Abn%20Div/505th%20PIR%20Normandy/505th19_0002.jpgAlso none of your reference photos are 505th PIR, pretty much they have all been either ID'd to the 508th PIR or the 507th PIR and the 2nd one you posted is from Market Garden. When researching what the 504th Pathfinders wore I would look at what the 504th was wearing when they returned to England from Anzio. I would also scrutinize the photos of the 508th and the 507th Pathfinder Teams(as that is where the 504th Pathfinders were sent) also there is a photograph(need to check my notes as to which book it was in) of all the 504th Pathfinders prior to the Jump. In summary/to add on to the tips that Sean said above, I would recommend: -Either going with a plain helmet or a "Sicily" Style Vesicant painted helmet -Ditching the GP Bag in lieu for a Thompson Rigger Pouch and Thompson Ammo Bag Combo -Removing the grenades from your suspenders and putting them into a rigger pouch on your belt or into the lower coat pockets(however as one of the pictures I posted shows it was done, just not on the scale it was done in the reenacting world) -Tightening up of the belt so it fits and rides better(not big but it does improve comfort and appearance) -Depending on your future research Camouflaging the Jump Suit and possibly adding vesicant paint to the left hand(?) cuff of the Jump Jacket -If you want to be super hard-core/stupid you may even want to consider impregnating the Jump Suit, however I would only do that if you have another Reinforced Jump Suit for Market Garden 3/504 -Josh |
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Post by Rapture on May 26, 2011 16:32:27 GMT -5
I was basing my research on the ankh on this site here. ww2aa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=allied&action=print&thread=770The posting showed that the blue ankh was for 3rd battalion but I could be wrong there. So your saying the ankh was only worn with the visicant style paint scheme? And if that is the case I will be sure to paint over the ankh. As for the thompson riggers pouch I thought those were all but phased out following Italy or was that simply the garand riggers pouches? For the helmet netting, what kind of netting do you recommend? I was using the larger netting because that is what I believe was more prominent during the Italy Campaign. |
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Post by redjoshman on May 26, 2011 17:07:57 GMT -5
I was basing my research on the ankh on this site here. ww2aa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=allied&action=print&thread=770The posting showed that the blue ankh was for 3rd battalion but I could be wrong there. So your saying the ankh was only worn with the visicant style paint scheme? And if that is the case I will be sure to paint over the ankh. As for the Thompson riggers pouch I thought those were all but phased out following Italy or was that simply the garand riggers pouches? For the helmet netting, what kind of netting do you recommend? I was using the larger netting because that is what I believe was more prominent during the Italy Campaign. I wouldn't base your research, sorry if I offend, off an Airsoft Forum. Basically the Blue Ankh is a 2/504 thing and was only worn with a German "Stained Glass" Style Camouflage(this is based off of photographs, first person accounts, and original examples that until recently I did not know about). From what I have seen and read the 3/504 seems to have been wearing mostly either plain M2 Helmets or M2 Helmets with Vesicant Camouflage paint scheme. I know many of the Vesicant painted helmets survived in the 1/504 and 3/504 through the Apennines and into Anzio, however the numbers that survived/were used by pathfinders during the Normandy Operation, or by those respective battalions during Operation Market Garden I am still unsure of. As to the rigger pouches, kinda. You do start seeing less and less rigger pouches as the campaign in the Apennines goes on, and the same holds true for the Anzio campaign. However these are not one for one being replaced by cartridge belts, you see many wearing just the pistol belt and using a bandoleer or two to carry ammunition and forgoing riggers all-together. The same does not hold true for the use of Thompson rigger pouches which still occasionally pop up as late as the Battle of the Bulge. During Normandy though, you see a revival of rigger pouches. In the 501st, 502nd, and 506th PIRs of the 101st Airborne Division, rigger pouches are more common than cartridge belts. In the 505th PIR rigger pouches(which 99% of the time are of the tie-style) are more numerous by far than cartridge belts. In the 507th and 508th PIRs the rigger pouch to cartridge belt ratio is about even, maybe a little more lopsided towards rigger pouches. For helmet netting you want the small 1/4 inch "British Style" helmet net as you see in the photographs I posted of the 505th in Normandy. The net you are wearing is perfectly correct for the 505th and 504th during the Sicily and Salerno Operations however by the fighting in the Apennines that style of net had all had disappeared. During the Normandy operation the 82nd as a hole predominantly used the 1/4 inch "British Style" helmet net, which continued during operation Market Garden. -Josh |
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Doc Butzen
2nd Lieutenant 
Does this Swastika make me look fat?!
Posts: 984
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Post by Doc Butzen on May 26, 2011 18:08:20 GMT -5
My biggest suggestion is if you are going to do Pathfinder, You should base it off pictures of pathfinders in the 504th. All of the pictures you posted were 505th and one i believe was Market Garden time frame.
Doc Butzen
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Post by mccallion on May 26, 2011 19:06:51 GMT -5
Only 3 sticks of 504 guys were pathfinders for normandy thats just 26 men, there are no know pictures of these men who volunteers to be pathfinders
McCallion
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Post by TC1c Dunigan on May 26, 2011 20:24:30 GMT -5
Three buddy's of a friend of mine was three of those 26 selected. They all came from his How Company, 504th PIR. My friend was a mortar man. S/Sgt. J. T. Sapp, 3/H/504th PIR.   He also stated that the 504th PIR as a whole didn't participate in Normandy. They were sent to England for rest and replacements. He stated that when they arrived in England, 3/H/504th PIR had just 20 men fit for duty. Regards, FRISCAN |
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Post by Rapture on May 26, 2011 20:33:06 GMT -5
Well looks like I have some work ahead of me. If anyone has anymore critiques please let me know. I was basing my kit off of Italy 504 pics and any 82nd outfit in normandy not just 505 should have not been so specific.
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Doc Butzen
2nd Lieutenant
Does this Swastika make me look fat?!
Posts: 984
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Post by Doc Butzen on May 26, 2011 21:35:00 GMT -5
The people who have commented so far are only here to help, but expect us to be very detailed. We all are very detailed and do non stop research on our impressions. Assuming info is never a good idea. We are crazy yes, But have well planned out and thought out impressions, take our critques as us helping you. Not bashing you.
Doc Butzen
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Post by Rapture on May 26, 2011 22:34:47 GMT -5
O not at all thats why i posted up so I could get my impression down perfect
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Thumper
Forum Admin MP & POTW MP
Posts: 4,314
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Post by Thumper on May 27, 2011 8:04:16 GMT -5
Also I rarely see pics of 82nd Airborne troopers with the helmet web chinstrap fastened and secured over the back brim of the helmet. Usually it is either hanging loose or hooked to the helmet netting.
The M1 Thompson was used by the 82nd Airborne although I find the M1928 to be more frequently encountered in pics from Normandy (and before).
Not 100% sure here, but I think there is some question as to the reinforcement of the 504 troopers uniforms. In Italy they were not reinforced, and there may be some ambiguity as to if the 504 pathfinders had the 'standard' reinforced suit.
Going back to the net, for the Normandy operation the 82nd troopers all seem to have the smaller mesh net, whereas the 101st tended to have the larger mesh net (like you are wearing). But as Josh stated the larger mesh net was used by 504 and 505 in 1943 (Sicily/Italy).
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Post by Boogiewoogie on May 27, 2011 8:52:54 GMT -5
The place to check would be the Holland photos. See if reenforced suits on documented 504th soldiers are there.
The other variable would be, did Riggers do this while the rest of the Division was in Normandy?
Martin
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Post by Rapture on May 27, 2011 9:28:15 GMT -5
Also I rarely see pics of 82nd Airborne troopers with the helmet web chinstrap fastened and secured over the back brim of the helmet. Usually it is either hanging loose or hooked to the helmet netting. The M1 Thompson was used by the 82nd Airborne although I find the M1928 to be more frequently encountered in pics from Normandy (and before). Not 100% sure here, but I think there is some question as to the reinforcement of the 504 troopers uniforms. In Italy they were not reinforced, and there may be some ambiguity as to if the 504 pathfinders had the 'standard' reinforced suit. Going back to the net, for the Normandy operation the 82nd troopers all seem to have the smaller mesh net, whereas the 101st tended to have the larger mesh net (like you are wearing). But as Josh stated the larger mesh net was used by 504 and 505 in 1943 (Sicily/Italy). I have many photos in a reference book here of 82nd troopers in normandy with reinforced 42s. As for the 504th having them it is pretty much impossible for me to tell due to lack of photos but in holland I have seen a few pictures of the reinforced jump suit as well as a mix of unreinforced and m43s! 82nd really was a mixed bag for holland. For the chinstrap I looked over the photos again and have multiple pictures of the strap on the back of the helmet but I tend to change it up every so often. Most of the time its just hanging loose. My m1a1 thompson will hopefully soon be replaced by a 28 because I do agree with you that 28s where much more common. As for the net looks like I have more shopping to do! |
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Post by Boogiewoogie on May 27, 2011 11:46:30 GMT -5
Please share all those chinstrap photos, the 100 plus that I have do not show them on the backs of helmets.
Martin
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Post by Rapture on May 27, 2011 12:20:51 GMT -5
Admittedly two of them are 325 GIR MPs but there is one of a regular 82nd trooper that does appear to have it on the back of his head. These photos are are in the book Point of No Return and I have no way to scan them to show you so youll just have to take it for what it is. To me this is really not a big deal I will simply let it free hang next time. I simply put it up there to be out of the way.
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Post by mccallion on May 27, 2011 13:02:41 GMT -5
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Post by Boogiewoogie on May 27, 2011 13:53:07 GMT -5
People say, I think I know it all. I learned about those camo helmets today. You always learn something new here.
Martin
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Post by twhigham on May 27, 2011 21:22:46 GMT -5
Can I ask why you would choose to kit out as something that's hard to research? Family attachment?
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Post by TC1c Dunigan on May 27, 2011 21:39:38 GMT -5
Can I ask why you would choose to kit out as something that's hard to research? Family attachment? Perhaps he likes a challenge? I know when I started researching the U.S. 30th IR back in 1998, there wasn't a whole lot of documentation on that particular unit. It wasn't till round 2004, that resources from veterans and the division really started to come to the surface to allow further in depth research. I'm still researching the 30th IR, and I'm still learning bits and pieces that are not written in AAR or the regimental/divisional histories. For instance, the 30th IR had tactical markings just like the 7th IR did on the rear of the M1's. They were not card suits, like we know the 7th IR's perse' but, they were both small and large shapes that the individual soldiers and the division knew. The earliest known photo of those markings that I've seen so far is at Zepplinfeld Stadium in Nuremburg, Germany in 45.' Though, I do highly imagine they were instituted possibly much earlier then that. Well, sorry to get a little off topic guys. Just pointing out that although particular units are difficult to research, to gain knowledge on them although time consuming the evidence/documentation will eventually come to the surface to make the research less difficult in the future. Besides, to do the hard research I find is far more gratifying in the long run. The hunt and discovery of lost history and the how and why something came to be is an adventure all on its own rewarding to the researcher. Regards, FRISCAN |
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