1/7th Inf Reg 3rd ID in S France Sept 1944

[Carper]

Hey everyone this is my first attempt at posting pictures. My impression is of a 1/7 Reg infantryman somewhere between Lure and Faucogney, France, mid to late-sept 1944. Thanks to Friscan for the photos, and also www.dogfacesoldiers.org/

Reference:
www.dogfacesoldiers.org/vosges/xxxx-38.htm
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/2406_1063760906605_1003462362_30297732_623_n.jpg
www.dogfacesoldiers.org/vosges/xxxx-37.htm
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/09.jpg

Impression:
Still warm during Mid-Sept:
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0600.jpg
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0605.jpg
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0607.jpg
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0606.jpg

Starting to cool towards the end of Sept:
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0608.jpg
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0611.jpg

Close up of Helmet:
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0616.jpg
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0615.jpg

Note: After the pictures were taken Friscan brought up the point that many soldiers in the 3rd ID lost/broke/disgarded their liner chinstraps. I have since removed the liner chinstrap. The original canvas chinstrap was torn on the long side and was "repaired" when i first started reenacting, I decided to return it to the original torn strap since it gives it more character.

Breakdown:
Worn:
M1 Swivel bale helmet - original shell painted by me, repro liner
Helmet net - unsure but very similar to brit made type
undershirt - At the Front
U.S. Flannel Shirt, OD, Special - At the Front
Wool Trousers - WWII Imp
Buckle boots - At the Front
M-1923 Cartridge belt - At the Front
M-1924 First aid kit - At the Front
Canteen Carrier - At the Front
Canteen and cup - Original
M-1943 Shovel cover - At the Front
M-1943 Shovel - Original
Bandolier - At The Front
M-41 Field Jacket - Sturm (untill i get my WWII Imp one from Chain Dog )

In pockets:
Brass Zippo - modern
Bible - original gift to soldier on 25 DEC 1941
Hankerchief
French Language guide - original
German Launguage guide - original
French Franc's - Marked with soldiers name and date he landed in France - Sept 7 1944

Let me know what you guys think, what I need to fix and so on.
Thanks for looking everyone

[williegford]

Looks good Carper! Not alot to critique. Get your gear "broken in" a little bit and you'll look like a seasoned GI.

Bill

[Carper]

Thanks Bill.

[bargunner1942]

outstanding, love how your just carrying the bare essentials and not full 28 pack 4x bandoilers looks great

[TC1c Dunigan]

OKAY!

Never fear for the FRISCAN is here.

#1. The insignia on the helmet.. WAY too big... for the insignia you want them about an inch and a half above the bales and centered on the bales.

For early insignia it shouldn't exceed 1 1/4" In. x 1 1/4" In. the later insignia shouldn't exceed 1 3/4" In. x 1 3/4" In. The early insignia is all hand painted the later is stenciled.

#2. Adjust your M-1923 cartridge belt, you want that up and AT your waist not sitting on your hips.

#3. Your first aid pouch move it back to the rear of your belt where your E-tool is located.

#4. Move your e-tool, forward a little on the right side of your belt.

#5. The spade should be quite large on the rear of the helmet.

As to your reference pics...

#3. is a picture of the 30th Infantry Regiment.

#4. is a picture of the 15th Infantry Regiment.

I do envy you in one aspect... I'm still looking for one of those darn helmet nets.

Thats my critique... adjust that and you'll be rock in it MARNE style!

You're looking good Carper... keep up the good work dogface.

"ROCK OF THE MARNE!"

Regards,
FRISCAN

[Boogiewoogie]

Martin to the rescue!!!!

How about this one Jimmy? It looks the part!!

cgi.ebay.com/WWII-original-US-Late-War-Helmet-Net-/320688658242?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aaa889742

Martin

[PFC Small]

Just curious as to why there is a spade on the rear of the 3rd ID helmet.

PFC Small

[Boogiewoogie]

They were used for the Dragoon invasion by the 7th. There was a thread about which was which at some point in the past.

Martin

[TC1c Dunigan]

Jul 14, 2011 11:45:31 GMT -5 PFC Small said:

Just curious as to why there is a spade on the rear of the 3rd ID helmet.

PFC Small

Its just a tactical marking for the U.S. 7th Infantry Regiment.

1st Battalion - Spades
2nd Battalion - Hearts
3rd Battalion - Clubs

I'm also researching the U.S. 15th and 30th Infantry Regiments tactical markings and when they were implemented. The U.S. 7th Infantry Regiment had their's as early as Anzio that I know of. Just as to when it ACTUALLY came into effect is what I'm researching now. Also the same for the 15th's and the 30th IR's.

Thanks Martin,

I appreciate the help, Is that a Brit net mislabeled on ePay?

Regards,
FRISCAN

[Carper]

Other elements of the 3rd ID had distintive markings too.
Div HQ had a large HQ on the back of their helmets and the Battle Patrols had a large lightning bolt.

[GyreneGreen]

Jun 15, 2011 0:09:12 GMT -5 Carper said:

Close up of Helmet:
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0616.jpg
return it to the original torn strap since it gives it more character.

M1 Swivel bale helmet - original shell painted by me, repro liner
Helmet net - unsure but very similar to brit made type

Carper,

I don't know exactly what the origin of your helmet net is. I was able to look at one recently at an event that a guy in a 517th RCT group had. Seems to have the tight weave like the British/Dragoon type nets but I think it is almost too tight or small.

Martin,

I think the net you linked is just the US 1944 style sans neoprene band. The bail cut out sections seem to affirm that. I was able to get a section of what could be the correct British net which has an almost identical weave to the US 1944 style but is khaki rather than green. I was told it was cut from a vehicle net. I took a few pictures comparing the two style nets.

US v. "Brit" Net
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNet.jpg
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNet3.jpg
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNet2.jpg

Lighter style net in use Dec. 24, 1944 near Bitche, France. A series of shots from a signal corps film.
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNetBCo.jpg
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNetBCo2.jpg

[TC1c Dunigan]

Jul 14, 2011 20:58:02 GMT -5 GyreneGreen said:

Jun 15, 2011 0:09:12 GMT -5 Carper said:

Close up of Helmet:
i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff448/mikecarperjr/GEDC0616.jpg
return it to the original torn strap since it gives it more character.

M1 Swivel bale helmet - original shell painted by me, repro liner
Helmet net - unsure but very similar to brit made type

Carper,

I don't know exactly what the origin of your helmet net is. I was able to look at one recently at an event that a guy in a 517th RCT group had. Seems to have the tight weave like the British/Dragoon type nets but I think it is almost too tight or small.

Martin,

I think the net you linked is just the US 1944 style sans neoprene band. The bail cut out sections seem to affirm that. I was able to get a section of what could be the correct British net which has an almost identical weave to the US 1944 style but is khaki rather than green. I was told it was cut from a vehicle net. I took a few pictures comparing the two style nets.

US v. "Brit" Net
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNet.jpg
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNet3.jpg
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNet2.jpg

Lighter style net in use Dec. 24, 1944 near Bitche, France. A series of shots from a signal corps film.
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNetBCo.jpg
i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx57/thk25/HelmetNetBCo2.jpg

I've seen both the late US nets and Brit nets used with the 3rd Division. You start seeing the late nets around the time they get into the later stages of the Vosges Mountain operations to around the time they enter Strasbourg, France. The Brit nets are much earlier around the time of Anzio, they being to pop up.

Regards,
FRISCAN

[Boogiewoogie]

The 44 net that I know is not knitted. It is kind of twisted.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/44net.png

The surplus camo nets are knitted. Mine have a rusty brown color on one side and green on the other. I picked them up around 90 or so.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/vehiclenet.png

What I consider to be a real British net, is knitted, but is much thinner than the surplus camo nets.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/britnet-1.png

The three of them together.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/helmetnet.png

My wife thinks I am nuts right now, digging out helmet nets at 10:00 p.m.

Anyways, the net I linked looked like the surplus nets to me. Color has nothing to do with it. It would be the construction. I have seen those European nets come in a variety of colors.

Martin

[Vudu]

Jul 13, 2011 23:25:05 GMT -5 TC1c Dunigan said:

For early insignia it shouldn't exceed 1 1/4" In. x 1 1/4" In. the later insignia shouldn't exceed 1 3/4" In. x 1 3/4" In. The early insignia is all hand painted the later is stenciled.

@friscan-
About what time period would you say is the dividing point between "early" and "late?" I'm thinking midsummer of '44 - after the fighting north of Rome but before preparation/training for DRAGOON. Sound right to you?

Cheers!

[TC1c Dunigan]

Jul 18, 2011 0:07:22 GMT -5 Vudu said:

Jul 13, 2011 23:25:05 GMT -5 TC1c Dunigan said:

For early insignia it shouldn't exceed 1 1/4" In. x 1 1/4" In. the later insignia shouldn't exceed 1 3/4" In. x 1 3/4" In. The early insignia is all hand painted the later is stenciled.

@friscan-
About what time period would you say is the dividing point between "early" and "late?" I'm thinking midsummer of '44 - after the fighting north of Rome but before preparation/training for DRAGOON. Sound right to you?

Cheers!

I'd say the cut off is July 1944. The 3rd didn't see any fighting north of Rome. Once in Rome they garrisoned it. They were there for a week or two and then headed for amphibious training down south around Naples. By July 1944, amphibious training and embarkation to Op. Anvil/Dragoon was in full swing for the 3rd Division.

You don't see a LOT of the 1 3/4" In. x 1 3/4" In. insignia till a little later into the S. France campaign and the war overall. Most of the large insignia you see on August 15th, 1944 are with replacements. It makes them a dead give away as most of the pre-Anzio vets are still wearing the smaller insignia.

Regards,
FRISCAN

[TC1c Dunigan]

Jul 14, 2011 18:50:17 GMT -5 Carper said:

Other elements of the 3rd ID had distintive markings too.
Div HQ had a large HQ on the back of their helmets and the Battle Patrols had a large lightning bolt.

I haven't seen anything to substantiate this claim as of yet. I have several photos of members of the 3rd Divisions command structure... G-2's and G-3 and so on... and they bear no "HQ's" on the rear of their helmets.

As for the Battle Patrols, the lightning bolt may be the case for the 7th but, as for the 15th or 30th I've seen nothing insignia-wise for them. The individual battalions of both the 15th and 30th did have tactical markings however on the rear of their helmets. However, just when those were officially implemented?... Is not known unfortunately. I first saw all the 30th's tactical markings together at the Zepplinfeld Stadium in Nurnburg in 45'. So I know they were implemented sometime before that. Could it have been for the crossing of the Rhine at Worms? Perhaps, but, thats a guess and I'd rather had a good old hard fact in my corner before I put it on my helmet. lol

The 7th's "Diamond's" also were a topic of controversy because we had no photos of them, no official documentation of them until recently. They were used for 7th Regimental HQ's. There was a photo of an M1 Helmet floating around the internet with 3rd Division insignia and a diamond on the rear with the officers bar in the middle of it. Some said real, some said fake. Well, it was a fake. Especially when compared to the photograph of one of the actual 7th regimental "Diamonds". They were tall and fairly narrow in design, almost a sudo officers bar in a diamond shape.

Regards,
FRISCAN