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Post by Boogiewoogie on Mar 24, 2011 12:52:41 GMT -5
I deleted that post as worthless trash. Lighten up Francis is not even worth reading. If you have nothing more constructive to say, don't bother.
Martin
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Post by jsullivan on Mar 30, 2011 11:34:40 GMT -5
With all due respect to all involved, my comment was not intended to be an insult. I was was simply joking. That's why I used a line from a comedy. Still, noone else has put their definition about what German reenacting is all about other than to say that they disagree. I, for one, agree. It is a great pic!
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Post by Boogiewoogie on Mar 30, 2011 13:24:47 GMT -5
I guess ya gotta go with something. You can't say they did the world any favors.
You can't say they were trying to protect themselves. Mien Kampf pretty much shoots wholes in that theory. Lebensraum isn't a non aggressive ideal.
So I guess it has to be about guns and camouflage or you look twisted in America.
Martin
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Post by jsullivan on Mar 30, 2011 15:07:33 GMT -5
The thing I get more than anything else from veterans is that they are glad to have German reenactors take the field with their uniforms togther and weaponry in place. It gets rid of the notion that they we up against a bunch of "Schultzes" ( Hogan's Heroes ) who fall all over themselves like many early WW2 movies depict; and reenforces the fact that they really earned the victory. Not to say that the photo, by any way, glorifies the Nazi regime or that German reenacting does. To me, it is a true tribute to our US veterans to show what they really defeated, which was a battle-hardened army with, for the most part, 3 to 4 more years of combat experience at the time of D-Day. The table displayed would have been maybe a company's worth of MP-40's not to mention the MG 34's and 42's that aren't shown. I'm glad I didn't have to face that in battle.
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Post by Boogiewoogie on Mar 30, 2011 15:23:38 GMT -5
I have noticed that there are many, who use a German impression to down grade the Army that came from this country.
They talk about the superiority of the weapons, fighting spirit, etc. I will never get that. The worlds "best" Army lost to these lesser Armies.
They had some tough weapons ( anti tank weapons, heavier tanks and excellent mortars). They wouldn't surrender, until things were very obviously over. That was their claim to fame, after 1942.
I still haven't figured out what the majority read, beyond weapon and uniform/camo books. If you quote actions that Allies observed, they call it propaganda. They have a handful of personal accounts in English, vs the 100's that are Allied. So all those Allied soldiers were liars?
A reenactors manhood is not questioned by the impression they do. You are not responsible for the actions of WW2 soldiers. Your not a WW2 soldier. Pretty easy things to understand, yet hard for some it would seem.
Martin
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dbloge
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 1,130
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Post by dbloge on Mar 30, 2011 18:04:56 GMT -5
...."there are many, who use a German impression to down grade the Army that came from this country." Really? what percentage of German reenactors? 50%? 1/2 of 1000th%
A "handful of personal accounts in English". Really? Are you serious?
DL
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Post by Boogiewoogie on Mar 30, 2011 22:15:35 GMT -5
Well if there are more, nobody quotes more than a few. So they aren't using them.
You think I don't read every post on this board? I see what is written since the inception of this board.
I have heard it at events.
This all goes hand and hand with "earning" medals, and "winning" blank battles.
Amazing stuff.
Martin
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Railsplitter
Major
"You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of your life" My father in 1972
Posts: 3,189
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Post by Railsplitter on Apr 1, 2011 8:51:41 GMT -5
There are alot of German accounts that have gotten translated. I can think of more than a dozen without even searching for them. There are many more than 20 years ago, and there is no shortage of primary sources for German reenactors now. Back 25 years ago, Guy Sajer was just about all we had then...
As for the vaunted German Army's prowess, just don't forget it was roundly defeated twice in the last century, and made the same strategic mistakes. The US Army in WWII never gets the respect it deserves, but it was highly adaptive in terms of the leadership and tactics, had pretty good equipment (not as sexy as the german stuff, but still all very good/reliable overall), and had better personnel strategies than the Germans. The US personnel scheme allowed the 90 divisions (89 made it to a theater of war) to stay in the line and continue fighting versus the destroy and rebuild strategy of the Germans. In the end, they got their butts kicked by what many German reenactors deem a second rate force. Isn't that like saying, our team played well but the other team only beat us because they scores more points?
Don't get me wrong...I think the German impression is really interesting, and their stuff is very interesting...as a stall in my garage sits full because of my liking of their stuff. Of my 28 years in renacting, 17 of them was doing German full time, and I still do it part time. All of my impression investing now is in German stuff now.
Having said that, the German Army wasn't all that either. I think they were also innovative and did a lot with not a lot, but in the end, they lost big time twice in a century.
LTC Tim
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Post by williegford on Apr 1, 2011 9:56:47 GMT -5
It seems like a discussion with this theme re-evolves like clockwork.
To think that you can do an impression of a country with the track record that Nazi Germany had and avoid the inevitable question from some of why is simply naive. That is just the reality of the situation. Whether you like it or not, there are going to be some who cannot understand why you would want to wear that uniform. That's part of the territory you are treading.
Bill
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Post by Boogiewoogie on Apr 1, 2011 10:30:28 GMT -5
I got nothing against reenacting German. I will say, I have something against the reenactors that started about the time SPR came out, and really took off flying with this strange line of thought. I had heard it years before that, but there is a newer group that carries that banner.
They pass it on to the younger reenactors. They in turn sound like members of the Hitler Youth.
I don't know where all those SPR reenactors came from. Some were new, others from other time periods.
It has been a disturbing thing to watch.
Martin
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Railsplitter
Major
"You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of your life" My father in 1972
Posts: 3,189
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Post by Railsplitter on Apr 1, 2011 12:04:15 GMT -5
www.amazon.com/What-We-Knew-Everyday-Germany/dp/0465085725/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1301677006&sr=8-2This is a really good book I am about half way through. It basically spells out what the "typical" German knew about the Holocaust, through a large series of interviews and a survey. The gist of it is that most Germans knew something was up, to varying degrees of detail. Soldiers saw things...or participated in them. Some were as simple as seeing trains full of people, to the camps themselves...or deporting people. Individual Germans saw people disappear, and some with their approval or participation. Some just heard things here and there, but overall, very few didn't know something was up. Statistics back all of this up, so it just isn't one or two interviews, and the interviews are representative. This ties back into the historical baggage of WWII German reenacting. You can not seperate Heer, Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe from the politics of WWII Germany if you use any real dose of reality. I am not saying people shouldn't reenact German...I am dilligently building a German impression for an upcoming event, and bought a tire iron for my Kubel last night...but people have to look at this time period for what it was and give people who criticize German reenactors no place to go. I refer you back to Rich Iott's lush explanations of the hobby, and how they played in the public realm...and perception is reality to those who see it. LTC Tim
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Post by jsullivan on Apr 4, 2011 7:10:18 GMT -5
Well described, Railsplitter. You are right on it.
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leicanthrope
2nd Lieutenant
There's a whole subculture of people who collect this Nazi sh*t.
Posts: 951
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Post by leicanthrope on Apr 4, 2011 10:50:52 GMT -5
I guess ya gotta go with something. You can't say they did the world any favors. You can't say they were trying to protect themselves. Mien Kampf pretty much shoots wholes in that theory. Lebensraum isn't a non aggressive ideal. So I guess it has to be about guns and camouflage or you look twisted in America. Martin There are a lot of GI reenactors that get into it out of purely patriotic motives. There's nothing wrong with that, other than the occasional dork that argues that he shouldn't have to take a hit because his side won the war. However, those are the same people that assume that everyone else in the hobby is reenacting from the same point of view - and thus look at German reenactors as a horde of closet Nazis. They can't imagine any other motivation. Nope. Sorry. Wrong. There are plenty of us that are just in it as historians. We enjoy the fact that, in many respects, it's a more difficult impression to get right. I'm an American. I can pull off an American from the 1940's pretty easily. It take a lot more effort to pull of an entirely different culture. For some of us, that's the really interesting part. Plus, there is a certain irreverent sense of humor that comes from playing the role of the "evil empire". Some of the most fun tacticals I have ever been to have been Ostfront events, simply because both sides have that going on. Less of the competitive BS, and more acting.
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Tailgunner24
Corporal
Sweat saves blood - Erwin Rommel
Posts: 114
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Post by Tailgunner24 on May 3, 2011 23:17:07 GMT -5
I know this is a little off topic but, as a historian I don't see to much wrong with what I saw at an event, but if I was an uneducated non-re enactor I think I would have been a little upset. At one event I saw the "German's" assemble and salute their flag with a Heil Hitler. I know this was strictly done so people could see what it was like but some got upset. What do you think about this?
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Post by Boogiewoogie on May 4, 2011 8:55:29 GMT -5
Nobody likes it, except for those doing it. That might be thier first clue.
Martin
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Railsplitter
Major
"You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of your life" My father in 1972
Posts: 3,189
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Post by Railsplitter on May 4, 2011 13:44:33 GMT -5
If you want to see what it is like, watch a movie. There are plenty of those scenes on film. Doing it in person is just a wierd ego-homo-erotic nazi fantasy trip that doesn't belong in reenacting.
LTC Tim
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Tailgunner24
Corporal
Sweat saves blood - Erwin Rommel
Posts: 114
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Post by Tailgunner24 on May 4, 2011 14:49:50 GMT -5
Sorry for my noobie questions, but do you also think that German flags at events are unacceptable? I dont know much about German reenacting and would like to learn about it. Is their a website like "hardscrabblefarm" for it? Thanks
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Post by Anzio Dogface on May 4, 2011 15:21:51 GMT -5
Sorry for my noobie questions, but do you also think that German flags at events are unacceptable? I dont know much about German reenacting and would like to learn about it. Is their a website like "hardscrabblefarm" for it? Thanks Well, I believe there are events that strictly forbid the "party flag". I think they are shooting for the basic red field with the white disc and black swastika. Now, if I'm not mistaken, that was the accepted national flag of Germany during the Nazi era...not just the Nazi Party flag. That flag is not banned from CHG or RPS events here in California, as far as I know. However, I doubt it would be flown outside the barracks at Camp Roberts. It's mainly hung inside the barrack hall. Now, the closest thing you'll find to a "Hardscrabble Farm"-type site for German reenactors is going to be www.dererstezug.com There maybe something else out there I'm not aware of.
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leicanthrope
2nd Lieutenant
There's a whole subculture of people who collect this Nazi sh*t.
Posts: 951
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Post by leicanthrope on May 6, 2011 1:22:46 GMT -5
If you want to see what it is like, watch a movie. There are plenty of those scenes on film. Doing it in person is just a wierd ego-homo-erotic nazi fantasy trip that doesn't belong in reenacting. LTC Tim So, essentially, you're calling into question the motives of virtually everyone who reenacts as a German? Yeah, there are a few freaks out there that do it for political reasons. They're out there, but they're generally shunned by other mainstream German reenactors that are afraid of being tainted by the "true believers". Subtract out those of us that do it because they haven't invented a time machine yet, as we're apparently living out homoerotic fantasies. ( BTW, nice job on that whole tolerance thing. ) That doesn't leave too many people... What, are the only "valid" German reenactors those that are doing it because they think that the uniforms are more flattering or something? Should we all just stay at home and watch movies to satisfy our interest in the subject, while the GI reenactors come out and face off against a bunch of ground squirrels and kit foxes?
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dbloge
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 1,130
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Post by dbloge on May 6, 2011 7:24:12 GMT -5
I think Tim was talking about saluting the flag. Its pretty weird and not necessary for a German impression.
DL
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