For Unit COs and NCOs

[blueletter]

Im directing this question to Unit Commanders and NCOs but I guess anyone can answer it. What is the average size of a reenactor unit in total members? What is your average event turn out and how do you organize your unit structure based on your turn out?

Im just kind of new to all this but there are times I saw 4 guys show up one Lt. two sgts and a pfc. How do you rearange the ranks to be effective?


D Sol

[scruffylookin]

While I can't speak for ALL units, it's seems most have a set rank structure from within. Usually a unit CO either a Captain or First Lt. The size of the unit will determine the balance of officers and NCO's. That being said, if a 60 member unit with one Capt., two Second Lts., 4 Sgts, 4 Cpls and the rest Pfcs and Pvts, only shows up with 10 guys to an event the rank structure could be a bit off kilter.

The size of units varies greatly. Having ALL members of the unit show up for any one event might be a rare thing.

Chad

[dvt]

While it varies from unit to unit I will answer for our unit. We have agreed that we will run with one officer and no more than 20-25% above pfc. That percentage includes the CO. That was about the ratio of the actual unit (about). While this is the ratio on paper it is possible to have the three NCOs and the CO show up with 5 pfcs. One of the reasons we picked the unit we did (an Airborne unit) was that once they hit the ground groups of random rank assembled to with whoever was around until they could find the rest of their unit. That kind of covers the weird ratio possibility.

I will be very interested in the other answers. My other question to hook onto the original, if I may, is how are the officers (inclusive of NCOs) selected in other units?

[ww2dave]

In our unit, I try and get the fellas to go slick sleeved. No unit patches or rank patches. I do this for a few reasons:

1.) Through 30th Div. Veteran interviews and unit history documents, I have found indications that Rank & Div. patches were removed by Combat units in Combat.

2.) In the unit, we know who were are, everyone knows who's got Rank and what it is... so no need to wear it to try and impress others. Lets face it, rank in reenacting is basically meaningless -- Nobody acts the rank any ways.

3.) No mater what event we go to, we can attach ourselves to any other US ground Infantry unit, if there is 1 or 2 of us.

4.) Since nobody wears rank, if a Pvt. wants to try and act as a squad or section leader at an event -- he can. Then you don't get a unit of Sgts & Lts run by Pvts.

It is a constant battle, because the fellas want to wear the Div. patch and let others know what unit we are. I keep telling them by not wearing the patches and by how we conduct ourselves at events, we are letting them know who we are -- I don't know if they believe me though?

Dave

[cco23i]

It all depends on your impression also. For Infantry we always tried to keep the rank to a minimum. If you had a squad you warranted a SSGT and maybe a Tsgt. For a Platoon you would have a 2nd LT. As for our ground crew unit the average rank for a crewchief is usually a SSgt, a row chief a Tsgt. and the line chief a Msgt. That's all I got.

Scott

[lowrdrbird]

Our group with flight line ops is a Master sargent and a Staff

Our pilots are Col. But that is what they really are in our group the CAF. So we always salute them for take off.

Now when we do infantry we mostly have privates and one cpl along with a Staff we lost our officer a while ago during battle so we go on our own.

Ken

[swampfox6]

We have a fairly fixed rank structure and chain of command. However, it is rare that those of us that are above PFC don't show up without an extra uniform top with no rank or PFC on it. This allows us to equalize the rank structure with the amount of troopers that show up and to allow us to train the lower enlisted to assume leadership positions.

[dogcomedic]

Our midwest unit branch count is 11. We don't need an officer. We have one NCO for our mounted recon section and a corporal for the foot/mountaineer section. After one year of membership and events, each member is allowed a PFC stripe. Nothing higher unless elected at the annual meeting or breveted in the field due to necessity. Slick sleeve is also encouraged, but we do encourage Div patches when at a public event for recognition purposes. When attending dances or USO programs, this is a different animal. We encourage actual rank to be worn, but do not have a problem if you want to impress some gal as long as you admit you ain't no general. Most of our young guys would rather sit around camp though, swilling something disgusting and homemade and cheating each other at cards...

It has been my delight to see few units with an officer of more than lieutenant grade. In the old world of CW reenacting, it seems everyone is an officer at some time or another.....

We usually have a turnout of 7-8 members at events, thus making a single NCO the best of all possible scenarios. Even when we get all 11, we stick with the structure.

Doc Phil

[blueletter]

Doc,

That is a way cool way of doing it. Im going to bring it up for our unit.

[mjerickson]

Our primary impression is USMC and rank on Dungarees was pretty much nonexistant so its really not an issue for us, depending on the situation and how many guys show up we assign the leadership responsablities accordingly.

As for our Class As we do something similar to the 10th Mt. boys. The rank and other items on the Winter Service coat are up to the individual, based on the individual impression. The older guys typicly have China Service ribbons and maybe multiple good conducts and hash marks. The situations in which we typicly wear our Service Greens are either social events, honor guards or parades. none of which matter what rank, battle blaze or decorations the individual may be wearing.

For example my coat has platoon Sgt Stripes, I plan on leaving them only because they came orginal with the coat and would like to keep it that way, but because of that I have taylored my impression a bit based on the rank.

[TAFF]

The unit our group usual portray was originally very officer/N.C.O. heavy because of what it did (Jeep born Recce. unit). A troop of 35-40 men was commanded by a Captain (whereas in an infantry Platoon of similar size it would be a liutenant), each section of 10 men was led by a subaltern, with a Sgt. as a 2 i.c. and at least another junior N.C.O. per section, so potentially 40% of each section could hold some form of rank! On paper our unit is 40 odd people, of which 20-25 are active and of those we usually get on average 10-15 at an event. We have one regular officer who is our unit commander and is elected each year by the group membership (whether he wants to do it or not! ;D) anyone can stand for the job then it's up to the membership to decide who we want. Because of our units paper strength he holds the rank of Captain within the Association our group belongs to (It was his rank in the Regular Army anyway so he knows the job), but because of our average turn-out he usually portrays a 1 Lt.

Our current paper ORBAT is a single jeep HQ section of the unit commander, Troop Sgt. and crew, then 2 Sections each of 2 jeeps commanded by a Sgt. with a Corporal as 2 1 i.c. We currently have 1 officer, 2 Sgt's, 3-4 Corporals, a few Lance Corporals and everyone else is an enlisted man. As much through luck as judegment we get a mix of people attending events and it usually works out so men can be jiggled around to fit in and we end up with an appropriate number of N.C.O's for the number of enlisted men there. N.C.O. appointments are usually made after the unit commander discusses things with existing N.C.O.'s and they decide on the person who deserves it and/or has the capacity to fullfil the role. This may not necessarily be the longest serving member, but goes more on a persons overall contribution, willingness to work and capacity to do the job.

On occasion we have known we will have a large turn out of 40 odd members and in this case temporary rank was given out with each N.C.O. taking a step up the chain for that specific occasion. When we have had occasion to portray units with a different rank structure then again we jiggle people around, most of us know who should be what and nobody really has a problem if they have to take rank off for a weekend, whilst it may have been earned through effort or taking greater responcibility within a group it is still ultimately 'play rank', we arn't loosing any pay by dropping it, so no big shakes for us to change rank like we change any other aspect of what we are portraying. All rank appointmnets within the group are temporary, it can be taken away if someone stops putting in the effort to keep it, AFAIK there hasn't been a case of this since I joined the group. We have had a few changes but it's happened because people have realised they don't have the time to put in and have stepped aside voluntarily. I think as long as flexibility and a relaxed attitude are retained then you can't go far wrong.

[kburson27]

Ditto on Doc Phil's remarks.... BUT! It is not disgusting, and it is not homemade! As to the cheating at cards: no comment

I would also add to his notes that we also usually have a 'corporal of the day' (Corporal du jour) who watches things when the NCO(s) aren't around.

[dogcomedic]

Kyle, it looked pretty disgusting to me! Anyway, you weren't around those guys too long, twinke-toes, ....... I saw you beating them off with a stick at the dance at Rockford......... ;D

Merry Christmas and enjoy the snow! And don't take out those long boards without me....

Doc Phil

[barcelonablom]

Im sure somebody with more knowledge can say we have about 30 some guys in our unit maybe more... In the CHG our membership is mainly measured by who is paying dues... since we're in a turnover period to '09 chances are our numbers would be reported lower...

This matters because the CHG puts limits on officers. The elected unit leader can become an officer if there is a 100% vote on part of the leader's unit and they have 25 due paying members.

We are led by a 2nd LT, our Assistant unit leader was just promoted to 1st Sgt for his long term service and sacrifices to the unit.

Otherwise we aim to follow a platoon structure, but loose because the amount of weaponry we have. we have a platoon leader, hopefully soon a replacement Platoon Sergeant, a Staff Sergeant platoon guide, and two sergeants, we have one corporal who is the company clerk and the rest are Pfcs and Pvts. Our unit leader has everything he needs to come out into the field as a Sgt if need be.

Now how many show up to an event... I think we usually have a nice round group of 4-10 at small events, and up to maybe 8-16 at larger events. I never noticed what our biggest turnout ever was. Usually a lot of those NCOs never make it. But we usually have a few to fill in.

Now if you toss in our heavy weapons, jeeps, and the varrying crews and then trying to field riflemen as well it gets complicated since you'd need guys leading the various teams, but our shoot from the hip methods seem to work. Most of our leadership are all concrete and if we need guys to fill in we just fill them in. I've been ASL twice and I'm still a Pfc in the unit... no biggie we have guys doing leadership billets all the time no matter what their rank is.. just depends on who shows up...

[sgtsaunders]

Back to his orginal question - which was how do you "readjust" ranks when you have a low turnout?

Units usally don't readjust rank, but leave them as there are. When you only have 4 or 5 it does look strange to have too many NCO and such, but fighting with 4 or 5 is just a strange. With a low turn out, the higher ranking guys just play the position of la ower rank over the smaller group. But no one changes their rank from event to event.

Some units have rules over attendance and holding a sgt position. If you don't come to events, they may need to promote new guys, and when the old sgt shows up he'll have no guys to supervise.

[WWIIArgyll]

Greetings. Lots of better events are going that way. Finally.

A basic command structure is already pre-determined prior to the event. No top heavy organizations invited so there are more boots in the field.

The idea of leaders bringing along a battle dress blouse or field jacket void of rank insignia should be the norm.

I don't see a problem with your local living history or display events having multiple higher ranked persons - as long as it is a portrayal that accomplishes something for the viewing public.

Cheers, and Merry Christmas to all, Johnnie, 1 Mx MG Bn, 15 Scottish Div.

[Roosevelt's SS]

Dec 21, 2008 11:46:02 GMT -5 ww2dave said:

It is a constant battle, because the fellas want to wear the Div. patch and let others know what unit we are. I keep telling them by not wearing the patches and by how we conduct ourselves at events, we are letting them know who we are -- I don't know if they believe me though?

Dave

We don't believe you, Dave.

I admit, I like having the unit patch on the jacket. Makes for a nice red target for the Germans.

[twhigham]

At any given event, we'll have between 8 and 15 guys. We don't need to adjust rank because most of us are privates or corporals anyway. We were CO'd by a Lt. in the past, but he moved to Spain, and then recently to Texas. We're now led by a SSgt of 10 years reenacting experience, with everyone falling under that. We figure if we keep rank under NCO, it'll be more realistic and since we know each other, we generally know who is in charge of what so things just work themselves out.

For me, I'm the adjutant for the unit. I think my rank is T-4 or T-5, but I haven't sewn any rank on my uniform since I made private and put a stripe on my last jump jacket. I'll be in charge of about 10 guys at the upcoming Liri Valley tactical in Ocala, Fl, so keeping slick sleeves is appropriate given the size of our force.

[Railsplitter]

This is my unit's original chart. It is based upon the original TOE of a WWII Weapons Company, which had smaller squads. For each squad there is a SSG and SGT. We haven't fully manned this based upon numbers alone and are now going more a formula of how many squads we field, and how many leaders we need based upon that, as well as other criteria like their level of experience. Overall it is working for us rather well. We are at 60 members, and have a CPT, 1LT, 1SG, T-SGT, 5 SSG's, and a few Corporals and SGTs. The geography of everyone means we don't have too many at any given event though, since two of our SSGs are at extreme ends of our area of operations, being 530 miles away from each other. Also keep in mind we have 30 high school guys at the academy, with only 4 having any stripes, and they dont mind it either.

LTC Tim

The commander of the Company H will be a Captain.

The unit will have addition officers and NCOs based upon the following size matrix. This is based upon the actual organization of Company H, based upon the Table of Organization:

6 members: 1-Sgt.

8 Members: 1-Sgt., 1-SSgt

14 Members: 2-Sgts, 1-SSgt

16 Members: 2-Sgt.’s, 2-SSgt’s, 1-TSgt

22 Members: 3-Sgt.’s, 2-SSgt’s, 1-TSgt

24 Members: 3-Sgt.’s, 3-SSgt’s, 1-TSgt, 1-LT

30 Members: 4-Sgt.’s, 3-SSgt’s, 2-TSgt, 1-1SG, 1-LT

32 Members: 4-Sgt.’s, 4-SSgt’s, 2-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 1-LT

38 Members: 5-Sgt.’s, 4-SSgt’s, 2-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 1-LT

40 Members: 5-Sgt.’s, 5-SSgt’s, 2-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 1-LT

46 Members: 6-Sgt.’s, 5-Ssgt’s, 2-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 1-LT

48 Members: 6-Sgt.’s, 6-SSgt’s, 3-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 2-LT’s

54 Members: 7-Sgt.’s, 6-SSgt’s, 3-TSgt, 1-1SG, 2-LT’s

56 Members: 7-Sgt.’s, 7-SSgt’s, 3-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 2-LT’s

62 Members: 8-Sgt.’s, 7-SSgt’s, 3-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 2 LT’s

64 Members: 8-Sgt.’s, 8-SSgt’s, 4-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 2-LT’s

70 Members: 9-Sgt.’s, 8-SSgt’s, 4-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 2-LT’s

72 Members: 9 Sgt.’s, 9-SSgt’s, 4-TSgt’s, 1-1SG, 3 LT’s

Personnel will rise from Pvt. To PFC after 3 unit approved events. Those events must be on the unit calendar and do not include local displays just involving the unit alone.

Promotion to Corporal will be based upon service to unit, added to WWII reenacting service, added to total reenacting time (all hobbies). The number will be based upon months of service. The troops with the most time in grade will be offered it first. It is a time in grade promotion.

Promotion to Sgt., and above will be based upon input of the unit and ability to perform the jobs assigned. For instance, a Sgt. must be capable of performing all basic squad leader skills, such as map reading, battle drills, and drill and ceremony. Promotion to SSgt is based upon performance as a Sgt., but requires the same skill set. Promotion to TSgt or LT requires ability to lead a two-squad platoon, and perform all required functions. Promotion to 1SG requires ability to lead two platoons, as well as manage all the unit support activities.

Personnel in technical jobs such as Medic, Supply, Mess will rise from Private, PFC, Corporal to SGT.

Personnel bringing special skills or equipment for use by the unit may be promoted quicker. For instance, a vehicle owner who joins the unit may be promoted immediately to Corporal or Sgt., since they are the vehicle driver/commander.

Consideration needs to be given to geography as well. If a squad or section is dislocated from the main unit by hundreds of miles, promotion may be given to a fairly new but competent reenactor in order to provide leadership in this region.

[dbloge]

in the unit i recently joined there was recently a decision made NOT to have an officer until we can get 20 troops to show up to 3 events a year.........a big event should have about 75% participation rate................we have about 18 troops on paper now.........so we need another 10 members at least......i think its important to base rank on actual field turnout and not just on paper membership...........lets also remember that owning vehicles shouldnt automatically get a person rank and that the majority of actual drivers in WWII were not nco's


doug